End of Season 5 weirdness

[Guy Gardener]

that was what sold me on the show. It's the same deal as the Liberator from Blakes Seven. Cat and mouse. You need 2 or 3 dozen of the most powerful local ships to take down this one dirty foreigner with it's almost magical technology despite the fact that it's barely larger than a shuttle.

Hells, the Aeon almost destroyed Voyager and that WAS a shuttle.

When the enemy has to out think the goodguys because they can't match the goodies fire power or speed, you're going to have to have a very intelligent villian. GO TEAM SESKA! She took the ship in basics well enough that only some bugger who Janeway spent time pissing on and despising turned the tide who really had every reason not to.

The original though might have been that janeway would have to out think stronger species, or be diplomatic but by season 4, Voyager was acting out as if it was 10 times more power than either of Picards enterprises.

 

[Anwar]

I agree, the DQ would've worked better as a wasteland that had been ravaged of most of the more advanced species due to the Borg with the remnants being the lesser advanced types the Borg wouldn't care about. VOY should've been a 7 foot Adonis amongst 5 foot midget men chucking pebbles at it when it came to outright combat.

 

[exodus]

VOY couldn't develop any of their aliens to the extent TNG and DS9 did because they were always moving and never stuck around long enough, and they didn't have the arc option either. Plus one arc of 2-3 episodes isn't enough to develop a new alien race to TNG/DS9 levels.

Also, the only aliens they could use from TNG/DS9 were too powerful to begin with and had to be depowered to be used on the show.

Too add to this, most of the aliens used on TNG & DS9 are from TOS. Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, all from the classic. Ferengi, Cardassians, Trill & Bajorians were built up from TNG thru to DS9. It took 2 full series to create the Ferengi from snarling rodent men in "Last Outpost" to the greedy yet cunning scoundrel Quark was and then even show contrast thru his brother Rom.

If it takes 3 full series and a bunch of movies to fully round out the Klingons, what could the writers really do with the Hirogen in one?


BTW, one correction:
Yes, Voyager is quick & smart due to the bio-neural gelpaks.
Like Tom said, Voyager was built for combat.
It was a hit & run vessel, just like Janeway used it.

 

[Withers]

I agree, the DQ would've worked better as a wasteland that had been ravaged of most of the more advanced species due to the Borg with the remnants being the lesser advanced types the Borg wouldn't care about. VOY should've been a 7 foot Adonis amongst 5 foot midget men chucking pebbles at it when it came to outright combat.

I actually sort of like the idea of making Voyager/Starfleet feel like the United States in the Middle East. Make it clear that they could just annihilate everybody without a second thought but also make it clear that their morally upstanding personnel won't resort to that unless it is absolutely necessary. That would be an interesting take on the exercise of restraint anyway.

If it takes 3 full series and a bunch of movies to fully round out the Klingons, what could the writers really do with the Hirogen in one?

"It's tooooo haaaardddddd... I can't do ittttt." : |

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

^^They tried developing the Kazon and fans complained that Voyager stayed in their territory too long and felt fleshing out the aliens made Voyager feel they were traveling too slow. So thanks to the writers listening to us fans, they decided to cut back on over developing and other alien species after than.

All true.

 

[RyuRoots]

^^They tried developing the Kazon and fans complained that Voyager stayed in their territory too long and felt fleshing out the aliens made Voyager feel they were traveling too slow. So thanks to the writers listening to us fans, they decided to cut back on over developing and other alien species after than.

All true.

Except...they really didn't develop them at all? And even if they had, lack of development was, at least for me personally, not the issue. They were hapless idiots and remained hapless idiots that made me feel embarrassed when the VOY crew outdid them in pure incompetence. Seska was the only thing keeping all the Kazon from rushing out an airlock because someone taped a "free candy" sign on the airlock door.

If you mean that one episode with Chakotay and the kid, which is the closest they got to development as far as I remember, I'm not sure that counts since everyone on the Kazon side is a complete piece of cardboard. Kar less so, but...not by a lot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, Kar ree-ee-eeeeally doesn't count since he was a ringer from DS9.

I sighed when Chakotay said "lets fake my death and they'll think you rock" just like that awful foxy boxing episode of Star Trek the Next Generation.

Good twist.

Totally Kaiser Soze.

The kazon working for Seska with out breaking ranks and bitching kim as good soldiers was for me proof that they knew how to win the day, find some one smart and tie your starto them which is the complete epitome of gang mentality anyways. They became cardassians in all but name, and if Seska would have survived I do beleive that would have all become Cardassian in name as well as far as cardassian Immigration and naturalization policy stands.

I thought the rebel slave tweek was just too much on the nose though, ut showing more conflict betwen the trabe and the kazon could have been quite fun since it would have been huge city ships just slamming each other with barages of beam weapons.

Their hair was stupid.

 

[Saito S]

^^They tried developing the Kazon and fans complained that Voyager stayed in their territory too long and felt fleshing out the aliens made Voyager feel they were traveling too slow. So thanks to the writers listening to us fans, they decided to cut back on over developing and other alien species after than.

All true.

All not true.

"The fans" complained because the Kazon sucked. As RyuRoots pointed out, not only were they uninteresting to begin with, not only did they receive almost no development, but they were utter morons. They were terrible villains. That's what people reacted to. Then, we got EPISODE AFTER EPISODE about the Kazon. People got tired of seeing Voyager vs. the Kazon because they disliked the Kazon.

And if, as you say, they "tried developing the Kazon", then boy, they sure did a rotten job.

As for the rest:

felt fleshing out the aliens made Voyager feel they were traveling too slow. So thanks to the writers listening to us fans, they decided to cut back on over developing and other alien species after than.

I wanted to quote this specific part again for reference. Your basic premise here is that "the fans" were watching Voyager and crying "Damn it, stop trying to make the aliens interesting or deep! That just makes it seem like they're not going anywhere!" That's absurd. No one wanted weak, one-dimensional, paper-thin aliens. And if the writers actually let the fans dictate the show's direction to THAT degree, as you claim, then said writers were idiots. You do not let fans have that much control.

Not that I really buy that the fans DID have that much influence; that people were actually going "Don't try to develop the aliens! They're better if they're simplistic!", let alone that the writers heeded that message and decided to INTENTIONALLY cut down on the amount of depth in their aliens. But even if I did buy those ideas, that doesn't make the writers look very good. You do not give fans the steering wheel. You can give them a medium through which they can tell you that they THINK you should turn left rather than right, but you do NOT give them the wheel.

Seska was the only thing keeping all the Kazon from rushing out an airlock because someone taped a "free candy" sign on the airlock door.

So true.

Their hair was stupid.

Also true! Whose idea was it to make their hair look like they all had masses of coagulated garbage on their heads? Dumbest alien hair ever, seriously.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The suits were tapping prescribed demographics, which has nothing to do with real people watching TV, because real people don't buy things because their TV tells them to, or at least much anything that costs more than 10 dollars.

Years ago I went though a big list of episodes and writers and tabbed the bugger good. There was a little over 70 authors(Including Berman who got a rubber stamp on every script because supposedly he read "every" script when he bought them and his hypothetical abiilty to input or not input counts equally as "writing") for 170ish scripts. Voyager had a writing room, but they were still receiving spec scripts from wannabees by the ton who's work thenafter was raped by Voyagers writing room until it looked like the same old package.

Writers like actors are just whores.

Producers are pimps.

 

[exodus]

^^They tried developing the Kazon and fans complained that Voyager stayed in their territory too long and felt fleshing out the aliens made Voyager feel they were traveling too slow. So thanks to the writers listening to us fans, they decided to cut back on over developing and other alien species after than.

All true.

All not true.

"The fans" complained because the Kazon sucked. As RyuRoots pointed out, not only were they uninteresting to begin with, not only did they receive almost no development, but they were utter morons. They were terrible villains. That's what people reacted to. Then, we got EPISODE AFTER EPISODE about the Kazon. People got tired of seeing Voyager vs. the Kazon because they disliked the Kazon.

And if, as you say, they "tried developing the Kazon", then boy, they sure did a rotten job.

As for the rest:

felt fleshing out the aliens made Voyager feel they were traveling too slow. So thanks to the writers listening to us fans, they decided to cut back on over developing and other alien species after than.

I wanted to quote this specific part again for reference. Your basic premise here is that "the fans" were watching Voyager and crying "Damn it, stop trying to make the aliens interesting or deep! That just makes it seem like they're not going anywhere!" That's absurd. No one wanted weak, one-dimensional, paper-thin aliens. And if the writers actually let the fans dictate the show's direction to THAT degree, as you claim, then said writers were idiots. You do not let fans have that much control.

Not that I really buy that the fans DID have that much influence; that people were actually going "Don't try to develop the aliens! They're better if they're simplistic!", let alone that the writers heeded that message and decided to INTENTIONALLY cut down on the amount of depth in their aliens. But even if I did buy those ideas, that doesn't make the writers look very good. You do not give fans the steering wheel. You can give them a medium through which they can tell you that they THINK you should turn left rather than right, but you do NOT give them the wheel.

Seska was the only thing keeping all the Kazon from rushing out an airlock because someone taped a "free candy" sign on the airlock door.

So true.

Their hair was stupid.

Also true! Whose idea was it to make their hair look like they all had masses of coagulated garbage on their heads? Dumbest alien hair ever, seriously.

Actually, this was the type of flip flop reply I was expecting because one minute fans are all on the "writers don't listen to the fans & that's why Voyager sucks" band wagon, the next fans go "It's stupid to listen to what the fans want" route. So no, I don't really find it absurd because fans seem to complain about anything that isn't personally catered to them.

I don't think fans know what they want at all.

 

[doubleohfive]

That's because they don't; Fans may think they have a better idea about how a show should be written, but as most have no clue about how a show is actually written, really, their input amounts to "here's what I'd like to see..." and doesn't stretch far beyond that.

 

[exodus]

That's because they don't; Fans may think they have a better idea about how a show should be written, but as most have no clue about how a show is actually written, really, their input amounts to "here's what I'd like to see..." and doesn't stretch far beyond that.

Too true.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How much communication did the "fans" really have with the writer, producers and suits, beyond reflections metered from Nielson ratings, or focus groups?

It's been my assumption that a suit sees a more popular TV show than the one he or she is sheperding and then they just try to ape that other show to generate similar numbers for their own property.

 

[Withers]

That's because they don't; Fans may think they have a better idea about how a show should be written, but as most have no clue about how a show is actually written, really, their input amounts to "here's what I'd like to see..." and doesn't stretch far beyond that.

I bitch about this show as much as anybody and I almost never have a suggestion of any kind save for that what was done could have been done better. You know why that is? Because I don't need a better idea to point out a bad and I don't need a better idea to refer the writers of this show to their own previous better works.

"Look, you build a house here. Why then, with the same tools, did you build an open air debris garden here?" They can do better. I know because I've seen them do it... four times. So, yeah, I don't think they should listen to the fans any more than they do other than for common sense suggestions like "Pay attention to your own continuity" and "ask yourselves if that makes any sense." I also think they don't do that enough. Whadda ya know?

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

So, yeah, I don't think they should listen to the fans any more than they do other than for common sense suggestions like "Pay attention to your own continuity" and "ask yourselves if that makes any sense." I also think they don't do that enough. Whadda ya know?

-Withers-​

I know that if I put up with an audience of thousands constantly screaming away at me for being less than a writing God, I wouldn't have a terribly nice opinion of the fandom or their thoughts myself.

 

[Withers]

I know that if I put up with an audience of thousands constantly screaming away at me for being less than a writing God, I wouldn't have a terribly nice opinion of the fandom or their thoughts myself.

Well, first of all, I wouldn't know a Star Trek writer if he came up and spit in my face. I have literally no idea what any of them look like. So the idea that they were being "screamed at" by fans is an exaggeration. They were subject to criticisms from afar (like from this post to where ever it is they are right now) and when they chose to be (like attending a convention- where I've heard people are nothing if not very respectful to the actual people involved in the creation of Trek.) So we're not talking about Marie Antoinette here.

Secondly, there's something in between being "a writing God" and being a crap peddler. If they would've found that middle ground a little more often- like they did for every other series (including Enterprise) maybe fans wouldn't have been so hard on them.

Finally, having a negative view of the fandom (for any science fiction show) is... short sighted. Outside of that group of people... nobody cares one way or the other. So, love or hate, those fans are the reason the show exists (especially in Voyager's case.)

-Withers-​

 

[Guy Gardener]

I know what the guy who wrote Lifeline looked like. Lifeline is easily in most tasteful peoples top ten episodes and the face of the bloke who sat in front a PC to write it looked like this...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/TheDoctor.jpg



"Sigh".

 

[AuntKate]

I know what the guy who wrote Lifeline looked like. Lifeline is easily in most tasteful peoples top ten episodes and the face of the bloke who sat in front a PC to write it looked like this...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/TheDoctor.jpg



"Sigh".

Just like an actor to write an episode where he has TWO parts! Gotta love it!

 

[doubleohfive]

I know that if I put up with an audience of thousands constantly screaming away at me for being less than a writing God, I wouldn't have a terribly nice opinion of the fandom or their thoughts myself.

Well, first of all, I wouldn't know a Star Trek writer if he came up and spit in my face. I have literally no idea what any of them look like. So the idea that they were being "screamed at" by fans is an exaggeration. They were subject to criticisms from afar (like from this post to where ever it is they are right now) and when they chose to be (like attending a convention- where I've heard people are nothing if not very respectful to the actual people involved in the creation of Trek.) So we're not talking about Marie Antoinette here.

Secondly, there's something in between being "a writing God" and being a crap peddler. If they would've found that middle ground a little more often- like they did for every other series (including Enterprise) maybe fans wouldn't have been so hard on them.

Finally, having a negative view of the fandom (for any science fiction show) is... short sighted. Outside of that group of people... nobody cares one way or the other. So, love or hate, those fans are the reason the show exists (especially in Voyager's case.)

-Withers-​

Withers, are you a professional television writer?

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's no such thing as a professional TV writers. Just professional waiters who need some extra money to make rent.