End of Season 2 and start of Season 3

[Duane]

This will be a short post, I hope. Please see my comment regarding The Jam'Hader and let me know your thoughts.

The Collaborator - it's been a few days since I saw this but I loved it. The theme is a tiny bit stale as it is over done, but nevertheless it's a classic theme. Although I am really enjoying DS9, I have no real desire to see most of Season 1 and 2 again anytime soon, but this one is an exception. I love the fact that no matter what a person had done in Kai ?'s shoes (I forget her name -- Opaka? -- the Kai in the pilot episode), the consequences are dreadful.

Tribunal - I really did not like this one. The Cardies are made to look like idiots with their judicial system, and I like smart bad guys.

The Jem'Hader - while I certainly loved the action and pace of this episode, I also have a major issue with it. Possibly I am missing something so maybe somebody can help.

If the Dominion don't want us (the Federation) in their space, what right do we have to violate their restrictions, travel there anytime we want, and even set-up colonies? Isn't this a bit like stealing North America from the native American Indians? (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone -- I am a US citizen and I suppose my ancestors are as guilty as anyone else.)

At no time does anyone in Starfleet mention that we might not have a right to explore that space (the Gamma quadrant.) Did I miss something?? The Jadzia character tries to rationalize our need to explore the Gamma quadrant, but that particular scene was not well written and not convincing at all.

Jake shows up out of no where. I think this is his first appearance in many, many episodes. I think it was said that he had been on Earth, but were we ever told that when he left?

Still, a riveting episode.

Season 3 starts out great with the two-parter "The Search." Like a lot of TNG two-parters, part 1 is a lot better than part 2. It was nice to see Odo make it home, but it would have had more impact on me if I felt a knew Odo a little better.

The House of Quark was a ton of fun. I bet Armin S. had a ball that week. Quark really grows on you. His solution to the fight challenge was so simple and obvious, but I didn't see it coming!

Least developed character so far seems to be Dr. Bashir. Other than a few moments in the pilot episode, I don't feel like I'm getting to know this guy.

Major Kira is definitely less annoying in Season 3. And Keiko only sort of creeped me out in "The House of Quark" rather than totally creeping me out.

I've got guests for the next few days. I can't wait for them to leave so I can get started on more episodes : )

 

[anti-matter]

Good report...the story will get a lot more interesting and and a few thing will get cleared up. As far as the 'Collaborator' goes it just illustrates that when you sit in the big chair you have to make those big decisions. You'll find a lot of gray story lines is DS9.

 

[Frodo Lives]

I too was a little put off by Starfleet never, directly mentioning their right to explore versus the Dominion's right to have their borders respected, but between the lines it's pretty clear the Dominion's in the wrong here.

Hell, if someone sets up camp on your property - that obviously isn't marked - and goes wandering around, you go up to them and say 'Hey buddy, this is private property, move long!'

You DON'T pull out a shotgun, scream 'Get off my lawn!' and then proceed to blown them all away before they've even had a chance to say, 'Wha?', then carry their dead, mutilated carcuses back to their parents' house and say keep your damn kids under-control.

There's such a thing as OVERKILL, and the Dominion liked to do it, I'd say the Feds were pretty much justified in giving them the big FU. The Dominion was crazy, and Starfleet needed to know more about them before they went on a shooting spree. The Dominion likes to say they're all nice and happy, but they're assholes, pure and simple and the war with the Federation started the moment they blew up the first Starfleet ships in the Gamma Quadrant and destroyed New Bajor. The rest was just a lull period.

 

[Braxton]

I don't think the wormhole was even located in Dominion space. It might have been close though. The Dominion was trying to enforce their policy in territory that was not theirs. This is most likely why Starfleet kept exploring the Gamma Quadrant.

 

[intrinsical]

I'm not surprised that people ask this question.

You will need to carefully rewatch season 2 for tiny clues that the wormhole is not in Dominion territory. For example in Sanctuary, the 3 million Skrreea refugees that came through the wormhole were fleeing from the T-Rogoran space that the Dominion had just conquered. Naturally, the Skrreea were fleeing from Dominion space when they discovered the wormhole.

New Bajor colony had time to settle down before it was destroyed by the Dominion. Another implication that the wormhole isn't in Dominion space.

Lastly, the Jem'Hadar said "Coming through the Anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the Galaxy". He said nothing about violating Dominion space, merely not to come through the wormhole. In short, The Dominion were making a pre-emptive threat not to violate their future territory.

 

[Anwar]

The DS9 writers openly stated in interviews that the Wormhole wasn't located in Dominion space or right on their borders. It's like Japan telling the US to stay out of the Pacific or something. They have influence but not a real claim to it.

 

[Duane]

Anwar and others. I get it now. Thanks.

 

[TeutonicNights]

I didn't like "The Search".
Almost anticlimactic.

 

[Navaros]

Frodo Lives said:
I too was a little put off by Starfleet never, directly mentioning their right to explore versus the Dominion's right to have their borders respected, but between the lines it's pretty clear the Dominion's in the wrong here.

Hell, if someone sets up camp on your property - that obviously isn't marked - and goes wandering around, you go up to them and say 'Hey buddy, this is private property, move long!'

You DON'T pull out a shotgun, scream 'Get off my lawn!' and then proceed to blown them all away before they've even had a chance to say, 'Wha?', then carry their dead, mutilated carcuses back to their parents' house and say keep your damn kids under-control.

There's such a thing as OVERKILL, and the Dominion liked to do it, I'd say the Feds were pretty much justified in giving them the big FU. The Dominion was crazy, and Starfleet needed to know more about them before they went on a shooting spree. The Dominion likes to say they're all nice and happy, but they're assholes, pure and simple and the war with the Federation started the moment they blew up the first Starfleet ships in the Gamma Quadrant and destroyed New Bajor. The rest was just a lull period.

I don't agree with the Dominion being in the wrong and the Feds being in the right. If one is wrong about this, then both are wrong about this in my view. If the Dominion is doing overkill by blowing things up, then the Feds are likewise doing overkill by arrogantly and wantonly going whereever they feel like it in the universe without even attempting to contact the native inhabitants of those parts of the universe to ask for permission. That is every bit as wrong as the Dominion blowing stuff up would be. The Feds seems to have a mindset that they inherently have the right to go wherever they want by default. But where did this right come from? Only from pride and arrogance fabricated in their own minds. Not by the supreme authority from the god of universe which granted it to them. The Feds are just as much assholes for thinking they have free reign to go anywhere they want without so much as bothering to ask for permission first. I'd say the Dominion were justified in giving the Feds the big FU. About time someone smacked the Feds around a little to keep such arrogance in check, I think.:thumbsup:

Disclaimer: I am a Dominion fanboy and I do not buy into the generally held opinion that humans, simply by virtue of being humans, are inherently superior & worth more than & all the other races of the universe.

 

[Frodo Lives]

I by no means hold humans or the Feds up to some impeccable standard and believe they have a divine right of any sort.

But, what do you think they were doing by exploring the Gamma Quadrant if not seeking to make contact with the species and organisations that lived there? How else do you make contact when you have no idea who's there? You wander up and ring the bell, and what did the Dominion do? They blew up the front porch to get rid of those pesky kids at the front door. The Feds were following the most logical course of action in exploring the Gamma Quadrant, the Dominion acted irrationally to them. Then went and made the threat that they were going to come into the Alpha Quadrant and kick their asses.

And it was a deliberate act of aggression against the Federation, we never heard of the Jem Hadar bothering any Ferengi transports wandering around the Gamma Quadrant, incurring into Dominion territory, which there must have been considering they were after more business opportunities there.

They acted aggressively towards the Federation because they wanted to, not because they were encroaching on their territory. Overkill.

 

[Hofner]

This debate of Fed exploration has always intrigued me. I think Navaros at least partially has a point. Now the Dominion DID give no warning but the problem is the Federation has a history of ignoring warnings to stay out.

Granted TOS was a different time and I don't recall any examples from contemporary Trek. But I'll use the analogy previuos posters have used. You encounter a barb-wire fence. You get a little too close and get tangled in it; it sticks to you like 'flypaper'. So you destroy it and proceed on, bristling with guns.

Or you encounter a sign saying under no circumstances should you enter; you might endanger yourself. Well, at least that's clear enough but your boss orders you to go in anyway. So you go in bristling with guns and every intention of killing everybody on the premises in order to protect yourself.

Wow! Now that's arrogant. No wonder the Dominion decided warnings were useless.

Now don't worry, I'm not all that anti-Fed and my analogies aren't all that accurate but still... In fact, I'm feeling like a Starfleet officer. I think I'll go to my neghbor's house with my guns and knock on the door to have a pleasant chat. If they tell me to go away I'll just kick in the door and force myself on them... Uh, on second thought maybe that's not such a good idea. I don't even HAVE any guns.

Robert

 

[scottydog]

There's no question in my mind that the Federation was the innocent victim of ruthless (and senseless) Dominion aggression. The Federation's goal was to seek out new life and befriend it, to embrace and value different forms of life. In contrast, the Dominion's goal was to destroy all solids. The Federation definitely has the moral high ground.

 

[Duane]

At this point in the saga (only a few episodes into Season 3) it is not so clear to me that the Dominion is evil. Remember, I have not seen the later episodes.

But I liked Anwar's explanation and analogy (see below) so I'll stick with that.

"The DS9 writers openly stated in interviews that the Wormhole wasn't located in Dominion space or right on their borders. It's like Japan telling the US to stay out of the Pacific or something. They have influence but not a real claim to it."

 

[The Habs Fan]

Thanks roger1999 for these threads as it's nice to relive watching DS9 for the first time.

roger1999 said:
Least developed character so far seems to be Dr. Bashir. Other than a few moments in the pilot episode, I don't feel like I'm getting to know this guy.

That may be true for the first two seasons, but just wait and see...

 

[Garth Rockett]

intrinsical said:
I'm not surprised that people ask this question.

You will need to carefully rewatch season 2 for tiny clues that the wormhole is not in Dominion territory. For example in Sanctuary, the 3 million Skrreea refugees that came through the wormhole were fleeing from the T-Rogoran space that the Dominion had just conquered. Naturally, the Skrreea were fleeing from Dominion space when they discovered the wormhole.

New Bajor colony had time to settle down before it was destroyed by the Dominion. Another implication that the wormhole isn't in Dominion space.

Also, consider all the contact with various species from the Gamma Quadrant in Season One, and no one in the Alpha Quadrant had ever even heard of the Dominion until the Ferengi opened negotiations with the Dosi in Season Two. The Gamma Quadrant terminus of the wormhole was clearly not in Dominion Space, at least when the Federation began travelling through it.