Very true GG (great avatar, I loved the JLI!
). Neither of those theories, redefining the Ocampan year or the size of the orbit, will work to solve the lifespan problem. Plus, we saw Kes age over a few years in Before and After and in Fury.
Elogium - 3 Weeks
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Very true GG (great avatar, I loved the JLI!
). Neither of those theories, redefining the Ocampan year or the size of the orbit, will work to solve the lifespan problem. Plus, we saw Kes age over a few years in Before and After and in Fury.
Yeah, it certainly doesn't look good, does it?
Very true GG (great avatar, I loved the JLI!
Plus, we saw Kes age over a few years in Before and After and in Fury.
One could always assume that the Ocampa, who were living underground had some other way of counting their years than using the rotation around the sun, maybe counting 10 such rotations as one for some religious or cultural reason.
As for "Before And After", it did take place in an alternate timeline. As for "Fury"...........well, there were some circumstances here which makes me doubt a lot of what could be seen in that horrible episode. I can't understand why "Kes" should look that much older in that episode, the only reason I can see is that those in charge would deliberately make her look scary in some way. As an energy being, not bound by time and space she shouldn't have aged and it would have been possible for her to present herself in what shape she wanted.
Maybe the possibility of a prolonged lifespane given to her by Q, Suspiria or the good old Voyager Doc is the best solution after all.
Very true GG (great avatar, I loved the JLI!
Plus, we saw Kes age over a few years in Before and After and in Fury.
One could always assume that the Ocampa, who were living underground had some other way of counting their years than using the rotation around the sun, maybe counting 10 such rotations as one for some religious or cultural reason.
That still wouldn't work. When they say a year in ST, they mean a year. Also, again, we saw Kes aged in both Before and After and Fury. Her limited lifespan was well established.
So? She and her progeny still aged faster than humans, didn't they?
Do we know she actually became an energy being? It looked that way, but how long was she in that state. Perhaps she reverted to normal shortly after because she couldn't sustain it and began to subsequently age again. I think that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from her appearance in Fury.
That's about the only way out of it: Q magic or ST-super science. Q probably would've worked better, since he can do just about anything. ST-superscience is a bigger reach, though we did see that Susperia was able to extend the Ocampan lifespan, what, into the 20s? If that could be done, then I could see the Doctor being able to figure it out, knowing that it was possible.
^^
Well, I did use "the Q solution" to solve the problem in a story I wrote!
In the realm of ST, I'd say that's your best bet.
Neelix is not a pedophile. 
I don't even care for the Neelix character but the pedophile argument always seems so forced and pathetic every time somebody brings it up. C'mon...he wasn't banging a two year old toddler people. Kes was in her late teens early twenties in human terms. Neelix was in his, what, lower 30s? Why is everyone so quick to pull the pedophilia card? If one of your 30 year old buddies bangs a twenty year old chick, consensual of course, after bar close one night and he tells you do you throw the pedophile shields up and call the police? Not. You give him a high five and say way to go.
I don't even care for the Neelix character but the pedophile argument always seems so forced and pathetic every time somebody brings it up. C'mon...he wasn't banging a two year old toddler people. Kes was in her late teens early twenties in human terms. Neelix was in his, what, lower 30s? Why is everyone so quick to pull the pedophilia card? If one of your 30 year old buddies bangs a twenty year old chick, consensual of course, after bar close one night and he tells you do you throw the pedophile shields up and call the police? Not. You give him a high five and say way to go.
Given a little guess work, that she was 9 months old in the pilot, then she would have been 8 or 7 months old when Neelix met her... We've seen that these lot grow in spurts rather gradual like with us lot so it's possible she still looked exactly the same as she did when Neelix ran away and... Y'know if she was a kazon slave when they met, he would have romanced her and won the little girls heart while she was chained to a wall.
Kinky.
Kinky.
Neelix is not a pedophile.
I don't even care for the Neelix character but the pedophile argument always seems so forced and pathetic every time somebody brings it up. C'mon...he wasn't banging a two year old toddler people. Kes was in her late teens early twenties in human terms. Neelix was in his, what, lower 30s? Why is everyone so quick to pull the pedophilia card? If one of your 30 year old buddies bangs a twenty year old chick, consensual of course, after bar close one night and he tells you do you throw the pedophile shields up and call the police? Not. You give him a high five and say way to go.
Kes may have had the body of a 20-something (and Neelix looked a lot older than 30-something), but I just can't believe she had the commensurate mind. She had less than 2 years of life experience. Yeah, she learns fast, but even with that edge, would she still have the emotional maturity to make good decisions like leaving her homeworld with a hairy fish-headed space-truck driving man?!?! Remember, she still experiences time at the same rate as a regular human. I've asked a psychologist about this and she's of the opinion that Kes was still a minor.
Actually by the time she was 2 years old, Kes decided to dump Neelix and move on to a more fulfilling relationship because she had out grown him.
You'd have to wonder how mature she was that, sex aside, (Some people defy the idea Neelix was in a sexual relationship with her because it's... Seedy.) she gave Neelix a lung. If she was mature enough to give him her internal organs then lending him her sexual organs is a cake walk.
You'd have to wonder how mature she was that, sex aside, (Some people defy the idea Neelix was in a sexual relationship with her because it's... Seedy.) she gave Neelix a lung. If she was mature enough to give him her internal organs then lending him her sexual organs is a cake walk.
They should have made Neelix a father figure instead of lover. Nothing would have had to change much, he still would be jealous when Paris knocks on her door and she would have still given up the lung, and by her giving up a lung to her adopted father it would have made Neelix look less like an opportunistic scavenger/borederline pedophile... It seems then the love angle must have been thought out.
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Kes always seemed very mature to me, so I agree with Guy.
Looking at the Kes Wiki page, we can compare some pics of her. In 2369, when she was born, in one years time she would appear to have aged to about 13 earth years. Voyager rescued Kes in 2371, so at the very least she would be in her 20s in earth years. Clearly not a minor child. The only way to justify the pedophile argument is to claim she is emotionally immature. That would be a matter of opinion. Kes always seemed eager to learn and very mature to me. Kes never seemed to be a push over and was quite capable of thinking for herself. *shrugs* I don't know...
Looking at the Kes Wiki page, we can compare some pics of her. In 2369, when she was born, in one years time she would appear to have aged to about 13 earth years. Voyager rescued Kes in 2371, so at the very least she would be in her 20s in earth years. Clearly not a minor child. The only way to justify the pedophile argument is to claim she is emotionally immature. That would be a matter of opinion. Kes always seemed eager to learn and very mature to me. Kes never seemed to be a push over and was quite capable of thinking for herself. *shrugs* I don't know...
Klingons mature quite quickly too. I can see how a human woman who didn't know no better could take home a 10 year old for a night of frolicking.... Peter David agrees with men (in the new Frontier Books) that because of their extraordinary life span that Vulcan childhoods and early development are quite protracted and comical compared to a human. So in that case possibly a human woman could say that she has no interest in bedding a child what seems to be a child to a Vulcan who might be as old as 20 terran years but appear to be 12.
Another thing I liked about Before and After was that Kes had become a Doctor. She appeared to be older than dirt with a Toyboy helmboy hanging on her ever word like she were a real cougar and bugger me if she wasn't an accomplished stateswoman, hells I wouldn't have been amazed if she didn't treat even Captain Chakotay as a little whipper snapper tyke. Although if they had a flesh and blood Doctor... Wasn't it an insult to not turn off Doctor VanGough?
Another thing I liked about Before and After was that Kes had become a Doctor. She appeared to be older than dirt with a Toyboy helmboy hanging on her ever word like she were a real cougar and bugger me if she wasn't an accomplished stateswoman, hells I wouldn't have been amazed if she didn't treat even Captain Chakotay as a little whipper snapper tyke. Although if they had a flesh and blood Doctor... Wasn't it an insult to not turn off Doctor VanGough?
Ask Beverly "I swore I would never use one of these things" Crusher.
If holograms are sentient then they're a slave race. if holograms can be better doctors than people, then why would a patient risk being operated on by a non-holographic Doctor? You'll get to the point when there are no doctors but holographic Doctors who have to be programed not to be resentful about being immortal and forced to be a doctor for their eternal life...
Does the Doctor have the right to be a Doctor even though he can do the job better then any other dozen humanoids, if there's an... My goodness it's affirmative action for fleshies.
If holograms are sentient then they're a slave race. if holograms can be better doctors than people, then why would a patient risk being operated on by a non-holographic Doctor? You'll get to the point when there are no doctors but holographic Doctors who have to be programed not to be resentful about being immortal and forced to be a doctor for their eternal life...
Does the Doctor have the right to be a Doctor even though he can do the job better then any other dozen humanoids, if there's an... My goodness it's affirmative action for fleshies.
I find it rather odd that a scifi show is viewed negatively for describing an alien way of life...
As for the "Eloqium" thing, it doesn't really sound half as bad as that. Sure, the writers let their minds wander during the creative process and only got them back afterwards, but the end result isn't difficult to rationalize back into the realm of the possible.
What Kes really says is just this:
-eloqium comes only once, usually at age 4-5
-Ocampa females can have kids only when eloqium comes
-a sticky goo and 50 hours of mating are involved in conceiving a kid, which is then carried on the back of the mother
Apart from that, there's lots of abstract discussion where Kes or Neelix wonders if having "a child" is a good idea. However, at no time is there an explicit claim that only one child could be conceived.
It would be rather natural to assume that when eloqium comes, an Ocampa female will simply strive to mate lots and lots of times and get lots and lots of kids. Each will gestate quickly, just like the Ocampa mature quickly after birth, and Kes could thus plausibly give birth to a dozen (singly, or as twins or triplets) before her eloqium runs out. It's not a one-off affair at all, but simply a fancy name for the period of fertility on the species. Human females typically have an eloqium of about 25 years, or a third or a quarter of their lifespan; Ocampa females just happen to have one that lasts a bit less...
(...Or then not. No duration is ever given for the Ocampa eloqium. Kes might have remained in the receptive state for a couple of years for all we know, matching the human standard. Her reasons for hurrying with the first mating might have been complex and not completely rational.)
Kes, of course, would have little or no interest in using up her full child-producing potential. One kid would be plenty for her, as the survival of her species would be completely off her back (rather literally!).
Timo Saloniemi
As for the "Eloqium" thing, it doesn't really sound half as bad as that. Sure, the writers let their minds wander during the creative process and only got them back afterwards, but the end result isn't difficult to rationalize back into the realm of the possible.
What Kes really says is just this:
-eloqium comes only once, usually at age 4-5
-Ocampa females can have kids only when eloqium comes
-a sticky goo and 50 hours of mating are involved in conceiving a kid, which is then carried on the back of the mother
Apart from that, there's lots of abstract discussion where Kes or Neelix wonders if having "a child" is a good idea. However, at no time is there an explicit claim that only one child could be conceived.
It would be rather natural to assume that when eloqium comes, an Ocampa female will simply strive to mate lots and lots of times and get lots and lots of kids. Each will gestate quickly, just like the Ocampa mature quickly after birth, and Kes could thus plausibly give birth to a dozen (singly, or as twins or triplets) before her eloqium runs out. It's not a one-off affair at all, but simply a fancy name for the period of fertility on the species. Human females typically have an eloqium of about 25 years, or a third or a quarter of their lifespan; Ocampa females just happen to have one that lasts a bit less...
(...Or then not. No duration is ever given for the Ocampa eloqium. Kes might have remained in the receptive state for a couple of years for all we know, matching the human standard. Her reasons for hurrying with the first mating might have been complex and not completely rational.)
Kes, of course, would have little or no interest in using up her full child-producing potential. One kid would be plenty for her, as the survival of her species would be completely off her back (rather literally!).
Timo Saloniemi
Kes was worried because it came early and it only comes once so then that she might not be able to have a child, and Andrew seemed like an only child. If it wasn't for the glue, I might suggest multiple partners, but that would only work if the next gun in line to bone her was willing the cut the last guys hands off.
If it was only one child once ever, then they should be dying out and who knows, maybe they were.
If it was only one child once ever, then they should be dying out and who knows, maybe they were.
That would only be a problem if eloqium lasted for no more than 50 hours. For all we know, it lasts for a full year and allows for a dozen pregnancies. How long did the pregnancy for Linnis take? I don't think we ever get a solid figure. And even this would be for a half-Ocampa kid; full Ocampa might be completed faster, given how Naomi Wildman spent more time in mommy's tummy than is standard for humans.
Timo Saloniemi
Hmm, I actually like this episode a lot. But then I was always a sucker for the wacky off the wall sci-fi concepts. It is pretty clunky storytelling to portray a short lived species that can only have one child in their life, and obviously that would lead to a quick extinction but for the sake of my sanity when I watch it, I prefer to think that it is common the Ocampa to have 2 or 3 or more babies at during the Elogium. Anyway, however much you don't care for the writing or the effects and such, it will never reach the depths of crap that the 3rd season's ironically titled "Rise" did. You want to talk about shitty effects and bad writing/acting... although the bad guy ship in that one was pretty cool...
I agree. You can't hold an Ocampan (or any other alien) to human standards. After all, it's about infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
That's actually a pretty reasonable explanation for how the eloqium storyline doesn't necessary mean the Ocampan race can't remain viable so nice job.
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