Elogium - 3 Weeks

[Picard Alpha]

Hello Voyagerites...

Long time no chat!

I've been sent on a long business trip and thought it would be a good idea to bring some DVD's to occupy my boredom. I thought this would be a great chance to re-watch Voyager. I haven't really watched much since the series ended in those golden days of the United Paramount Network. I've always liked Voyager but I find myself really getting a kick out of these early episodes. Some really great episodes I've become more fond of include; Caretaker, Phage, Eye of the Needle, Prime Factors (for the Starfleet/Maquis plot), Cathexis (Some truly stunning FX), Jetral and Learning Curve.

At any rate I've worked my way into Season Two and recently just finished Elogium (which might possibly feature some of the worst and clumsiest effects of the entire series). In the episode Janeway tells Chakotay that the crew was only on a "3 Week Commission". The word Commission would seem to indicate that most of the Starfleet personal would have been re-assigned after the mission to the badlands. Do you think personnel like Lt. Cmdr. Cavit and Ensign Kim would have been transferred at the end of the mission? On that same note Janeway seems to indicate that she was not assigned as Voyager's permanent CO; which obviously isn't the case. Do you think this writer intended that she was some kind of 'floating' Captain? I know later we see her in the past meeting with an Admiral in Space dock which would indicate otherwise; however it's still an interesting line and even after all of these years can be open for interpretation. Many times Harry indicates that Voyager is his first 'deep space' assignment. Do you think it's possible he perhaps already had transfer orders to another assignment post Voyager? Ensign Wildman indicates at the end of the episode that she and her husband had been trying to have a child for months and that she was only supposed to be aboard Voyager for 3 weeks and planned to return to DS9 to continue the family life; not knowing she was preggers. (Which would have been neat to see on DS9, perhaps a re-accruing role of a man whose wife was lost in space; maybe even moving on and having children un-knowingly)

At any rate, we all know this was never shed anymore light but interesting none the less.

Cheers!

 

[loldrey]

You're right, it would have been cool to see more crossover between Voyager and DS9.. even some mention of Voyager's disappearance, or the reactions of Voyager crew mates' family members when they discovered the ship had gone missing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

CHAKOTAY: If it does take 75 years, we're going to need a replacement crew in about half that time.
JANEWAY: Who'd have thought we'd be considering a generational ship when we were ordered on a three-week mission.
CHAKOTAY: I know, but it's a problem we have to face now.

Gilligan was only supposed to be out there for three hours.

Most of the three weeks inclusive would have been travel time back and forth from earth tot he badlands since Tuvok had done all the really hard work before hand.

 

[Picard Alpha]

You know... I went to transcript this and I might be wrong. I've played it back a dozen times and if its true Janeway says mission; you could almost throw my speculation away. I think Mulgrew added a kah sound to mission making it sound like 'commission.'

Janeway
(To Chakotay)
Seams your concerns about fraternization were perfedict (sp?)

Chakotay
I wasn't even thinking about procreation, (pause) but I suppose it's the inevitable outcome. We should consider the fact that it might be necessary for the crew to start having children.

Janeway
(emotionally)
It might take us a long time to get home.

Chakotay
If it does take 75 years; we're going to need replacement crew in about half that time.

Janeway
Who'd have thought we'd be considering a generational ship when we were ordered on a three week commission. (this was most likely misheard and is actually the word mission with the kah in front of it)

Chakotay
I know but it's a problem we have to face now...

 

[Guy Gardener]

It would have been a very different show if they were all suddenly civilians in the delta Quadrant without that Starfleet glue to keep them together.

 

[Lynx]

Hello Voyagerites...

Long time no chat!

I've been sent on a long business trip and thought it would be a good idea to bring some DVD's to occupy my boredom. I thought this would be a great chance to re-watch Voyager. I haven't really watched much since the series ended in those golden days of the United Paramount Network. I've always liked Voyager but I find myself really getting a kick out of these early episodes. Some really great episodes I've become more fond of include; Caretaker, Phage, Eye of the Needle, Prime Factors (for the Starfleet/Maquis plot), Cathexis (Some truly stunning FX), Jetral and Learning Curve.

At any rate I've worked my way into Season Two and recently just finished Elogium (which might possibly feature some of the worst and clumsiest effects of the entire series). In the episode Janeway tells Chakotay that the crew was only on a "3 Week Commission". The word Commission would seem to indicate that most of the Starfleet personal would have been re-assigned after the mission to the badlands. Do you think personnel like Lt. Cmdr. Cavit and Ensign Kim would have been transferred at the end of the mission? On that same note Janeway seems to indicate that she was not assigned as Voyager's permanent CO; which obviously isn't the case. Do you think this writer intended that she was some kind of 'floating' Captain? I know later we see her in the past meeting with an Admiral in Space dock which would indicate otherwise; however it's still an interesting line and even after all of these years can be open for interpretation. Many times Harry indicates that Voyager is his first 'deep space' assignment. Do you think it's possible he perhaps already had transfer orders to another assignment post Voyager? Ensign Wildman indicates at the end of the episode that she and her husband had been trying to have a child for months and that she was only supposed to be aboard Voyager for 3 weeks and planned to return to DS9 to continue the family life; not knowing she was preggers. (Which would have been neat to see on DS9, perhaps a re-accruing role of a man whose wife was lost in space; maybe even moving on and having children un-knowingly)

At any rate, we all know this was never shed anymore light but interesting none the less.

Cheers!

I can see your points here and I agree with them.

Unfortunately, "Elogium" is one of the weaker episodes in season 2 (actually I consider it a season 1 episodes since it was filmed as a season 1 episode but postponed for different reasons). The episodes have many flaws, as mentioned in Picard Alpha's post and the whole story leads nowhere.

What I find most annoying with the episode is the total destruction of the Ocampa species, I mean the nine-year lifespan, the Ocampa can only have one child, the mating ritual, the Ocampa deliver their babies from the back and all that!

Sometimes I wonder what the writers were on when they came up with that.

As a fan of the character Kes, I must state that "Elogium" is one of the few episodes with Kes as a main character which don't work for me. ("The Gift" is much worse and I don't count "Fury" as a Kes episode).

The only thing that saves the episode is Jennifer Lien's acting. Kes is actually fun to watch when she eats beetles.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh c'mon... Elogium, good bad or ugly defined the Ocampan people. I like to think that their female's sexual organ is in her back too. And perhaps the male 's appendage too. Which would mean that they don't look at each other while they have sex, and the risk of head trauma would be a bit more incidental as the prospective mommy and daddy are thrashing their shoulder blades together. However if the males seed have to take such an extended journey from her crotch to her shoulders it's no wonder he has to continue shooting load after load for fifty hours.

The glue on the hands indicates to me that their men don't want to have children because their perhaps afraid of sex or afraid of sex with the female gender of their species and they have to be forced into the act of procreation. And the one baby ditty, I wonder if that's part of the caretakers curse? Did the Nacene make them incredible infertile when they fraked the biosphere?

Do you know if this was invented on the fly or if it was part of the bible because these are huge elements tot he Kes character? O... And what the frell was neelix so worried about committing to being a father to a baby which will be fully mature enough for Harry Kim to hit on in side of 7 months. Kim likes them young... or Dead.

 

[Lynx]

^^
My guess is that it was invented "on the fly" because if they had been sitting down, thinking and planning carefully, they would have discovered the flaws and not come up with such stupidites.

I mean, a species which live only for nine years could never develope into more than primates, if they have only one child it would lead to the demise of the species and the rest of it (the way thet delivered their child, the mating thing and so) were pure rubbish.

Unfortunately they didn't realize or care about that it wouldn't work, it was like "oh we've never had that in Star Trek before". If or when they did realize that most of what they did come up with in this matter were unrealistic rubbish, they just let it roll as if nothing had happened, just like "ah never mind, the viewers won't notice".

Which is sad because the Ocampa is an interesting species who should have deserved better.

 

[Captain Proton]

Do Ocampa live for 9 Earth years? Maybe their years are longer? That would be some coincidence if they were in the exact same orbit around their sun as Earth is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If their sun had a similar luminescence then of course Ocampa would be a similar distance from the sun and therefore take almost the same time to travel around said sun as Earth around its own sun... Otherwise the planet would be uninhabitable with out teraforming and constant maintenance.

But I would assume that the universal translator converts measurements in time and space for the many people aboard our favorite starship so that they seem to mean the same distances and times.

 

[Picard Alpha]

^^
My guess is that it was invented "on the fly" because if they had been sitting down, thinking and planning carefully, they would have discovered the flaws and not come up with such stupidites.

I mean, a species which live only for nine years could never develope into more than primates, if they have only one child it would lead to the demise of the species and the rest of it (the way thet delivered their child, the mating thing and so) were pure rubbish.

Unfortunately they didn't realize or care about that it wouldn't work, it was like "oh we've never had that in Star Trek before". If or when they did realize that most of what they did come up with in this matter were unrealistic rubbish, they just let it roll as if nothing had happened, just like "ah never mind, the viewers won't notice".

Which is sad because the Ocampa is an interesting species who should have deserved better.

Sadly it's those kind of writing flaws that can doom a character. So apparently we're led to assume they are born with genetic information such as accelerated understanding of the world around them? I mean... Neelix was sleeping around with a 1 year old who clearly new her sciences and bed mechanics. I'm surprised Janeway with all her moralities didn't hold an officially hearing and slap him with Pedophile charges. LOL. At any rate it would have been interesting to see how they would have copped out if she had stuck around till the final year. Would they have aged her with the whole pending death in 2 years? Maybe they would have magically reset her and the doctor would have found a way to keep his beloved alive for 19 years.. But alas, instead of trying they gave us a Borg... (.) (.)

 

[Lynx]

^^
My guess is that it was invented "on the fly" because if they had been sitting down, thinking and planning carefully, they would have discovered the flaws and not come up with such stupidites.

I mean, a species which live only for nine years could never develope into more than primates, if they have only one child it would lead to the demise of the species and the rest of it (the way thet delivered their child, the mating thing and so) were pure rubbish.

Unfortunately they didn't realize or care about that it wouldn't work, it was like "oh we've never had that in Star Trek before". If or when they did realize that most of what they did come up with in this matter were unrealistic rubbish, they just let it roll as if nothing had happened, just like "ah never mind, the viewers won't notice".

Which is sad because the Ocampa is an interesting species who should have deserved better.

Sadly it's those kind of writing flaws that can doom a character. So apparently we're led to assume they are born with genetic information such as accelerated understanding of the world around them? I mean... Neelix was sleeping around with a 1 year old who clearly new her sciences and bed mechanics. I'm surprised Janeway with all her moralities didn't hold an officially hearing and slap him with Pedophile charges. LOL. At any rate it would have been interesting to see how they would have copped out if she had stuck around till the final year. Would they have aged her with the whole pending death in 2 years? Maybe they would have magically reset her and the doctor would have found a way to keep his beloved alive for 19 years.. But alas, instead of trying they gave us a Borg... (.) (.)

The "pedophile thing" has been debated many times. I must admit that I didn't think about it when I watched the series. I always regarded Kes as someone between 18 and 25 and Neelix was obviously in his thirties. Now that ain't too bad.

But I know that people have reacted against the relationship and I can see some of their points. It's surprising that the writers didn't think about that aspect. But as I stated before, they were just coming up with things like "Oh, we have never had that before" and when it didn't work, they just let it roll, like "Oh never mind, the viewers won't notice".

Sloppy writing was Voyager's worst flaw.

As for the Kes-Neelix relationship, it looked like they more and less dropped it already in season 2. After "Parturition" it was hardly mentioned but when they finally decided to break it up, they couldn't even do it in a decent way. Once again, sloppy writing added with an incapacity of handling relationships as well.

As for Kes, I'm pretty sure that they had prolonged her lifespan if she had stayed, at least out of convenicene, not having to dabble with heavy makeup to make the actress look older. There were hints for such a solution in some episodes, most notably in "Cold Fire".

 

[Lynx]

Do Ocampa live for 9 Earth years? Maybe their years are longer? That would be some coincidence if they were in the exact same orbit around their sun as Earth is.

That's one of my solutions for this awkward problem. I've suggested that and some other things as well at my "Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them" page at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/Voyagermysteries.html

which is a part of my Kes website.

 

[borgboy]

The Ocampas on the colony they found with the Caretaker's mate were living what, 20 years I think, so there should be ways to extend Kes's lifespan f the need came up. Considering her advanced psi powers it seems reasonable to me that Kes could find a way to alter her own biology even.
The one child only thing is a horrible mistake. The species would die out very quickly that way. I'm thinking the caretaker fixed them some way to control population growth since they had limited space and resources.
And yes, Harry Kim marrying Kes and Tom's daughter in the alternate future was very creepy. Kes's daughter would have growm up thinking of him as an uncle. That Harry would get involved with a woman that he knew as a baby so recently is very disturbing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In taken an Uncle of sorts (Mat Frewer.) did it with his friends daughter (Snot girl from Blairwitch) and then naked post coitus they're talking "When you turned 18, I couldn't beleive my eyes looking at you." to which she replied "Really? I knew I was going to bang you since I was 12."

 

[rocketscientist]

And yes, Harry Kim marrying Kes and Tom's daughter in the alternate future was very creepy. Kes's daughter would have growm up thinking of him as an uncle. That Harry would get involved with a woman that he knew as a baby so recently is very disturbing.

You can say that again! I thought the same thing! Just another reason why Harry is nothing more than a desperate, pathetic, momma's boy and creep.

And what does that say about future Tom and Kes' parenting skills?!?!

Also, it's nice to see I'm not the only one who thought Neelix was a pedophile. IMO, there was absoutely nothing right about that Neelix-Kes relationship. He should've been thrown in the brig by Janeway. Actually, in light of what happened with Warren Jeffs' conviction for abetting rape, Janeway could face charges!

I think Lynx is right on the money wrt Kes' genesis. I recall reading Jeri Taylor saying that they had a lot of trouble coming up with new alien characters for Voyager because the best ones had all been thought up already on the other ST productions. The Ocampans and Kes just don't seem to be well thought up at all. I think as the show went on and the writers gravitated towards writing for the other characters, I think they realized that Neelix-Kes weren't working as intended. Subsequently, Kes, along with Harry Kim, were stuck on the expendable list, though only Kes was the one booted (I'd rather it had been Harry). That said, though I don't think Kes' character worked well at all and had a bunch of problems and that Seven was a vastly better and more interesting character, I do think that Kes could've been salvaged. Troi was nearly dropped from TNG after the 3rd season I think, but Jeri Taylor came aboard and championed her character. The same thing could've happened with Kes. I think they would've had to recommit themselves to the character, giving her a more important role and job on the ship and focusing on her relationships, or give her some kind of important arc.

Whatever, it's water under the bridge.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I have to disagree with some points here.

I think that the Kes character worked well when it was allowed th stand under the spotlight and that the problems that were could have been corrected and written around.

As for the comparision between Troi and Kes, I find Kes a stronger character (although I also like Troi as well) and since they could keep Troi, they could have kept Kes as well.

As I 've written before, Voyager's biggest problem was the erratic writing which more and less all characters suffered from, not only Kes. Kim was placed in the background from the start (at least Kes did get some decent episodes as main character compared to Kim), Chakotay was another character who they slovly shoved aside, Torres became superfluous when Seven arrived, Paris were also erratically handled, sometimes they didn't seem to know what to do with him and even Tuvok and Neelix suffered from erratic writing as well. They had great characters but didn't know what to do with them.

The Kes-Neelix relationship could have worked well for a while if they had omitted the silly lifespan or found a way to write around it. I guess the reason I never reacted on it is that I never saw Kes as a 1,5 years old but as an 18-25 years old which had made more sense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

By the time an Ocampa gets to 6 or 7, it is they who is the seemingly 50 or 60 something looking humanoid who is cradle robbing the Starfleet types, but I think the real question is: Who would have slept with/married Andrew Kim? And the progeny of said relationship... Who would they have hooked up with? This could have been creepily hilarious that by the time they got back to earth, if kes had stayed and the journey had taken 70 years Half the crew would have had ocampan spouse die on them and the other half would be Ocampan.

It would have answered all their crewing problems that every 3 and a half years they had another super genius to raffle off to the next pedophile, if of course Kim didn't marry every 5th generation's ascendant thinking his genetic diversity would have been watered down to mollify any incest issues...

 

[Captain Proton]

I get creeped out even by looking at Kes/Neelix promo shots.

 

[rocketscientist]

^^
I have to disagree with some points here.

I think that the Kes character worked well when it was allowed th stand under the spotlight and that the problems that were could have been corrected and written around.

Though I did think that Kes was too sweet and perfect, really the epitomie of the TNG-era type characters, I mostly agree with you that when they did have a Kes-centered episode, Ms. Lien was able to carry the story. I think she was a good actress, certainly a lot better and more invested in her part than Wang (who sucks) and Beltran (who was at least apathetic) ever were.

That said, I still think the character itself just had a lot of problems. The life-span was ridiculous and the relationship with Neelix was stupid and disgusting. And again, like Troi, she was too damn sweet, nice, and perfect. I like flawed characters and I think that's why the original ST and DS9 are my favorites. I've never cared for the touchy-feely sweet characters like Kes and Troi so much.

As for the comparision between Troi and Kes, I find Kes a stronger character (although I also like Troi as well) and since they could keep Troi, they could have kept Kes as well.

Yeah, I said they could've kept Kes, like they did Troi. If they had, though, I think they'd have had to really recommit themselves to the character, giving her arcs, new relationships, and a better job on the ship. They kind of did that with Troi. When Jeri Taylor came aboard, they started to have more episodes showing Troi doing her job as a psychologist. That still wasn't a great function for an ongoing character, but at least they were true to what her character was to begin with. They kind of got rid of all that stuff about her being a pseudo-diplomat because that detracted from Picard.

In short, they recommited themselves to the character and made her work as well as they could (although Ron Moore still thought she was a problematic character to write for). I think they'd have to do something similar with Kes if she was going to stay. Breaking her up from Neelix was a step in the right direction. Getting her out of sickbay and on the bridge or something like that would've been my next step. Or maybe have her powers grow to the extent that she was a better telepath, like what they did in Scorpion, so that she would be good at contacting more alien species. Whatever, imo I really think they needed to fix her character in a lot of ways. The actress was never the problem, it was always the character imo.

As I 've written before, Voyager's biggest problem was the erratic writing which more and less all characters suffered from, not only Kes.

Very true. Compared to DS9, Voyager's characters weren't written as consistently. Ron Moore thought Janeway, in particular, was all over the place as a character.

Kim was placed in the background from the start (at least Kes did get some decent episodes as main character compared to Kim),

I thought Kim got as many episodes as Kes, unfortunately.

Chakotay was another character who they slovly shoved aside,

Most likely because the writers and producers didn't like Beltran popping off and not knowing his lines.

Torres became superfluous when Seven arrived,

I didn't think so. Torres was still the one in Engineering. If anything, Kim became superfluous when Seven showed up. I wish they would've killed him off and just have Seven takeover. She was a vastly better character than Kim the loser.

Paris were also erratically handled, sometimes they didn't seem to know what to do with him and even Tuvok and Neelix suffered from erratic writing as well. They had great characters but didn't know what to do with them.

I thought they did a nice job pairing Paris with Torres, no complaints there.
I wish they'd done more with Tuvok. There were a couple episodes where I thought they really extrapolated too much wrt Tuvok's mental abilities as a Vulcan, but there were a lot of gems there when they let Tim Russ run. One of my favorite Voyager episodes is Gravity. That's as good as Nimoy's best episodes in ST. Tim Russ, imo, has never been better as Tuvok than in that episode. I loved that one.

The Kes-Neelix relationship could have worked well for a while if they had omitted the silly lifespan or found a way to write around it. I guess the reason I never reacted on it is that I never saw Kes as a 1,5 years old but as an 18-25 years old which had made more sense.

I don't know if they could've written around it. I still find it hard to believe that they went ahead with that horrible idea.