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Ellison is pissed

Pretty sure "City" is a special case, intellectual property wise, so comparing it to all these other situations is somewhat missing the point.

And as to the "only known for" comment, even aside from the literary stuff, his name appeared on every episode of Babylon 5 with a "Conceptual Consultant" credit.
 
Number6 said:
Actually he does. Remember when B&B were developing ENT they changed T'Pau to T'Pol to avoid having to pay Theodore Sturgeon for the rights to feature the character in the series.

That's a bit different, though.

Ellison is arguing that he legally owns the elements of "City" that are episode-specific -- that he owns Edith Keeler, the Guardian of Forever, etc. As such, Paramount Pictures, in making Star Trek XI, would be obligated both to obtain Ellison's permission and to pay him for the characters by licensing them from him for use in the film. Ellison would also, by virtue of his ownership of the character, have the right to approve or disapprove of how the characters/elements were used, and/or to use them in fictional contexts outside of the Star Trek universe (similar to how Terry Nation sometimes used the Daleks in extra-Doctor Who contexts).

However, the issue with T'Pau was not that Sturgeon owned the character -- Paramount (at the time -- now CBS) owns the character of T'Pau. Rather, the issue was that even though Paramount owned the character, they would still have to pay Sturgeon for every appearance she made onscreen though they would not have to obtain Sturgeon's permission and license the character from him. Further, Sturgeon (or his estate, rather) would not have approval rights over the depiction of T'Pau, nor the right to use T'Pau in extra-Trek fiction.

The issue here is whether Ellison's contract differed from Sturgeons. If it does, and Ellison is right to claiming ownership of "City"-specific elements and characters, then he owns the Guardian of Forever and has creative control over its depiction. If his contract did not differ from Sturgeon's, however, then he does not own the Guardian and has no right to determine how or if the Guardian is used by Paramount or CBS, though he is entitled to receive a royalty payment for having created the character/element (however you want to classify the Guardian).
 
Sharr Khan said:
I'm wondering, was there any such issue raised by using Khan in Star Trek II?

Sharr

An excellent question that would seem to speak directly to the issue at hand here...
 
Brutal Strudel said:
HarryM said:
Wow, Ellison invented the concept of time travel, amazing. And his concept was three old men on a hill, the "Guardians" (plural), IIRC, and not the familiar glowing donut. Ellison is great but he needs to give his antagonistic schtick a rest.

It's not schtick, it's contract law. If the brass in Hollywood weren't constantly trying to fuck the writers out of every niickel due them (and the disrespect afforded writers in Hollywood is legendary), they wouldn't be two weeks into a strike right now.

On the other hand, if guys like Ellison didn't throw a fit whenever someone used his 40-year-old work for hire script he damn near disowned (unless it's one of his close personal friends), the writers wouldn't have to fight off this false image of greedy millionaire hollywood types trying to get an extra nickel on every DVD so they can pave their swimming pool in diamonds.

I fully support the writers in this strike, but this kind of stupid childish crap almost makes me wish I wasn't. He thinks the script was an abomination and completely raped his ideas and had nothing of him in it... but he still wants his extra nickel.
 
David cgc said:
Brutal Strudel said:
HarryM said:
Wow, Ellison invented the concept of time travel, amazing. And his concept was three old men on a hill, the "Guardians" (plural), IIRC, and not the familiar glowing donut. Ellison is great but he needs to give his antagonistic schtick a rest.

It's not schtick, it's contract law. If the brass in Hollywood weren't constantly trying to fuck the writers out of every niickel due them (and the disrespect afforded writers in Hollywood is legendary), they wouldn't be two weeks into a strike right now.

On the other hand, if guys like Ellison didn't throw a fit whenever someone used his 40-year-old work for hire script he damn near disowned (unless it's one of his close personal friends), the writers wouldn't have to fight off this false image of greedy millionaire hollywood types trying to get an extra nickel on every DVD so they can pave their swimming pool in diamonds.

I fully support the writers in this strike, but this kind of stupid childish crap almost makes me wish I wasn't. He thinks the script was an abomination and completely raped his ideas and had nothing of him in it... but he still wants his extra nickel.

Of course he does. If Harlan Ellison, a legend in the field, can't make sure he's paid all the money he's owed for his work, what hope does some average joe no-name writer have for getting all the money he's owed?

It would be like working for a software company and creating the first version of a program -- say MS Word -- and having a contract saying that you'll get paid X amount of money for every copy of MS Word that's uploaded onto a computer anywhere, and then having the software company say, "Well, this is MS Word Version 2.0, so we don't owe you money anymore." He's legally and morally entitled to royalties every time something he created is used (though whether or not he owns the Guardian of Forever is a separate question).

And if high-profile writers like Ellison doesn't stand up for his right to receive such renumeration, then that means that studios might start refusing to pay money they owe to lower-profile writers. And let's not forget that most writers are not able to sell a lot of scripts and are not rich, just like most actors do not get cast in a lot of role or get paid like Tom Cruise. All writers have to stand up for their right to get paid or else they simply will never be able to make a living as writers.

ETA:

Having said that, Ellison is also a prat since, if I understand things correctly, there's every possibility that Paramount will be paying his royalty but simply hasn't cut the check yet.
 
scotthm said

I personally don't see much difference between a writer and an architect, but I don't know of any architects collecting royalties on the use of their buildings, even though the owners are often collecting big rents.

Great analogy, and it proves the point of why Ellison is pissed.

If an architect designs you "a" building, you can do pretty much whatever you want with "that" building itself. You aren't, in most cases, entitled to build another building which re-utilizes the same design (or any of its "unique" design elements) without compensating the architect for the re-use of his design(s).
 
This is just ol' Harlan grandstanding again. If he really had a case for ownership over the Guardian, he would have followed through on trying to stop the Crucible trilogy of novels from being published like he said he would, though the fact that they're sitting on my shelf suggests otherwise.
 
Angel4576 said:
P0sitr0nic said:
"Ellison is pissed"... that the only thing hes known for is a 40 year old Trek episode...

Not strictly true. His Outer Limits contribution, Demon With a Glass Hand was every bit as good as City on the Edge of Forever IMO.

Didn't he successfully sue the makers of The Terminator for alleged plot similarities between the above story and the Arnie-starrer?

Paramount should have learned - ya don't f*ck with the Harl!
 
Captaindemotion said:
Paramount should have learned - ya don't f*ck with the Harl!

You see, that makes me think that Paramount is that smart for two reasons:

1.) If Ellison has a legal leg to stand on, then the studio would have been wise to it, since he throws a tantrum every time a novel or comic book brings up the Guardian or Edith. Thus, the Guardian rumor must be bogus, since I don't think they're willing to pay for two "Based on" credits.

2.) If Ellison doesn't have a legal leg to stand on and the rumor is true, they have nothing to worry about. Case closed.
 
I see three possible outcomes:

1) Harlan gets his cash. Guardian of Forever used.

2) Harlan doesn't get his cash. Guardian of Forever used.

3) Harlan doesn't get his cash. Guardian of Forever replaced by another plot device.

This is entirely dependent on the legal situation, how much money is at stake, and how important the Guardian really is. With the writers on strike, option 3 might be very troublesome, as it'd need at least some minimal rewriting - and the film is currently filming.

I'm betting on option 1.
 
^^

Science fiction author Harlan Ellison sued over the film's similarities to his own works, especially the OUTER LIMITS episode Demon with a Glass Hand, and won acknowledgement in the film's credits.
 
Harlan's note says he was alerted to the situation by Peter David, who used the Guardian in one of his books (Imzadi). Did PD buy the rights or pay HE royalties? Or does that only apply within television and movies?
 
Peter David and Harlan Ellison are friends. PAD says he asked Ellison nicely before writing the book, so it was okay. I was alluding to that earlier, where Ellison demands to be fairly compensated for use of the script he hates and disowned, except when he likes the person who's using it.
 
Kegek said:
I see three possible outcomes:

1) Harlan gets his cash. Guardian of Forever used.

2) Harlan doesn't get his cash. Guardian of Forever used.

3) Harlan doesn't get his cash. Guardian of Forever replaced by another plot device.

This is entirely dependent on the legal situation, how much money is at stake, and how important the Guardian really is. With the writers on strike, option 3 might be very troublesome, as it'd need at least some minimal rewriting - and the film is currently filming.

I'm betting on option 1.

Still though; is he paid every time the Guardian appears in licensed products? The comics? The novels? The talking Hallmark ornament? Chances are the only thing he owns of "City" is from his earlier drafts, back when the "Guardians of the Time Vortex" were talking statues. All of two lines from his script are in the final episode. This is probably why we haven't seen a mass absence of the Guardian from Trek merchandise; I can't imagine Pocket Books or Hallmark shelling out big royalty bucks to Ellison every time they see something with the likeness of the Guardian.
 
Although I'm not an Itellectual Property expert, It seems to me that the people who are saying "it depends on what Ellison's 'COTEOF' contract said" have a good point. Did he sell all of the rights to the characters when he sold the story? I don't know.

It's like the estate of Gene Roddenberry (Majel and children). Will they get compensated by Abrams and Paramount for the use of Gene's Characters in this film? Or did they give away those rights when they "sold the store" to Paramount?
 
I don't have a problem with him getting paid something, it's just his hissy-fits I'm tired of, he is just unprofessional. He should have his lawyer call their lawyers.

The thing about this use of the Guardian is that it is pretty generic. Substitute in some other type of time portal or time machine and the story still works. It is not "Guardian Dependent" but just cooler with the Guardian. Now if it were a direct sequel with characters like Keeler then that is different.

Also, they could just not call it the Guardian. Big whoop. They all know what it is called already anyways, just call the The Portal. I just want to hear the Guardian's voice again, if they do it correctly that will be cool!
 
He made similar claims about the recent 'Crucible' trilogy of novels...even going so far as to claim he'd bar the third book (I think, depending on the timing it might have been 2nd and 3rd) from being released at all unless Paramount/Viacom/whatever gave him lots of cash.

The books were released, but who knows what happened behind the scenes.
 
MattJC said:
I hope Ellison ends up suing Paramount and Abrams.

broken_record.jpg
 
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