Eliminating the separation of Officer / Non-Coms

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Not bad, I'd suggest a slight change, based on both current practice and elements from Enterprise and TOS:

Tactical: Includes both "combat troops" (who double as security officers) and command officers (Bridge Duty Officers* [take command if needed, can operate any console], [most] Executive Officers, Commanding Officers). General authority over all three branches.
Operations: All personnel needed for the running of the ship - engineers, armory (weapons maintenance), communications/data systems, non-CTP trained pilots. NB: Normally exercise authority only within their own branch, but may take additional training to allow "dual-hatting" (ie Chief Engineer also acting as First or Second Officer)
Support: Most personnel needing to support the crew and the mission - medical, research and development, logistics, legal/PR/admin, construction, training. NB: Normally exercise authority only within their own branch (including command of specialist ships/bases), but specific and limited case-by-case exceptions are allowed (usually medical or JAG officers).

*Worf (and to alesser extent LaForge) during S1 would be close to what I am thinking here, though I'd expect a Galaxy-class to have full lieutenants or even lieutenant commanders filling these billets.

Tactical is spread throughout my 3x classes as fighting Person vs Person, Fighter Craft vs Fighter Craft, & Ship vs Ship requires different specialities.

Ops & Support are built within CrewFolk.

CrewFolk is probably the largest division with the most options to learn from since it's not heavily Combat focused like Soldier & Aviator. CrewFolk include other options besides just Combat.

 

[Longinus]

Starfleet obviously has enlisted personnel, and simple experience is not enough to get promoted to an officer. Otherwise O'Brien would have made it ages ago. I actually think that Roddenberry had the right idea originally and it was a shame that it wasn't followed through. To me it would make more sense if there wasn't officer/enlisted divide, and it was all just one continuous rank structure. Most of the time Trek does seem to forget that the enlisted exist anyway. To me it would make sense that everyone was an highly trained 'astronaut'; less like navy, more like NASA.

 

[The Wormhole]

Otherwise O'Brien would have made it ages ago.

O'Brien was offered a commission, he turned it down, according to Past Tense.

To me it would make sense that everyone was an highly trained 'astronaut'; less like navy, more like NASA.

In all honesty, when you're dealing with ships with crews of hundreds, you'd need an officer/enlisted divide simply to get the work done. Such a divide does exist in all ocean vessel services today, regardless if they're military or civilian. And since Starfleet is very much in the mold of an ocean vessel service, I don't see why they would do away with that.

 

[Longinus]

In all honesty, when you're dealing with ships with crews of hundreds, you'd need an officer/enlisted divide simply to get the work done.

Why?

 

[The Wormhole]

Because officers don't do work. That's for the enlisted men to do.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but there's truth to the claim all the same. The officers have a supervisory leadership role, while the enlisted are more hands-on get'r'done types. We see this divide in all walks of life, the medical profession has doctors and nurses, even the retail business has full-timers and part-timers, and so on. A divide between the working class and the leadership class is intrinsic to how our very society operates, and even in a utopian paradise where everyone's supposedly equal, there still has to be some sort of distinction between the workers and the leaders. It's basic human nature.

 

[Longinus]

Because officers don't do work. That's for the enlisted men to do.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but there's truth to the claim all the same. The officers have a supervisory leadership role, while the enlisted are more hands-on get'r'done types. We see this divide in all walks of life, the medical profession has doctors and nurses, even the retail business has full-timers and part-timers, and so on. A divide between the working class and the leadership class is intrinsic to how our very society operates, and even in a utopian paradise where everyone's supposedly equal, there still has to be some sort of distinction between the workers and the leaders. It's basic human nature.

Nah. Sounds like bullshit classism to me. In Trek we constantly see the officers to 'work'. Scotty and Geordi certainly get their hands dirty. And due automatisation there really aren't many tedious menial jobs. Leadership positions obviously need to exist, but that doesn't require such an essentialistic divide.

 

[The Wormhole]

I didn't mean to imply a class divide between social elite and the commoners. I agree that will be done away with and people will be able to choose which specialty they want to go in based on what their interests are and what they're most suited to as opposed to being lumped into a certain category based on the prestige of their families, hometown or other factors that have no relevance to their skills. And indeed, it will be possible for someone in the worker category to move onto the leadership category if they so wish and are capable. But a divide is still going to exist, and indeed still needs to exist.

And I always thought it silly that the Trek shows always have the senior officers doing hands-on work.

 

[Longinus]

I didn't mean to imply a class divide between social elite and the commoners. I agree that will be done away with and people will be able to choose which specialty they want to go in based on what their interests are and what they're most suited to as opposed to being lumped into a certain category based on the prestige of their families, hometown or other factors that have no relevance to their skills. And indeed, it will be possible for someone in the worker category to move onto the leadership category if they so wish and are capable. But a divide is still going to exist, and indeed still needs to exist.

And I always thought it silly that the Trek shows always have the senior officers doing hands-on work.

Thing is, as you note, they really never show this divide. There really doesn't seem to be much functional difference between junior officers and the enlisted. So it might as well not exist.

 

[The Wormhole]

Thing is, as you note, they really never show this divide. There really doesn't seem to be much functional difference between junior officers and the enlisted.

Well, that's certainly true. Even when the did try to include it with O'Brien they ended up bungling it up but good.

 

[Mysterion]

In all honesty, when you're dealing with ships with crews of hundreds, you'd need an officer/enlisted divide simply to get the work done. Such a divide does exist in all ocean vessel services today, regardless if they're military or civilian. And since Starfleet is very much in the mold of an ocean vessel service, I don't see why they would do away with that.

This.

I've never found the "everyone in Starfleet is an officer" thing to make a whole lot of sense. The enlisted/officer divide works just fine - and I say this as someone who was an NCO in the US Army.

Not everyone in the service needs (or wants) to have a four year degree and a commission, and it would be a waste of and a strain on resources to insist on such. Not every job needs that level of education/training in any case. An enlisted ordnance specialist, for example, just needs to know how to do the job they're expected to be doing. And the NCO Corps fills a valuable niche as a sort of middle management. The officers decide what needs to be done, the NCO's ensure it get's done. And a career NCO is an invaluable resource to a new young Ensign or Second Lieutenant - while an Ensign may outrank and CPO, a smart ensign will listen to the advice/guidance of a CPO who may have as much time in the service as the ensign has been alive.

 

[Longinus]

This.

I've never found the "everyone in Starfleet is an officer" thing to make a whole lot of sense. The enlisted/officer divide works just fine - and I say this as someone who was an NCO in the US Army.

Not everyone in the service needs (or wants) to have a four year degree and a commission, and it would be a waste of and a strain on resources to insist on such. Not every job needs that level of education/training in any case. An enlisted ordnance specialist, for example, just needs to know how to do the job they're expected to be doing. And the NCO Corps fills a valuable niche as a sort of middle management. The officers decide what needs to be done, the NCO's ensure it get's done. And a career NCO is an invaluable resource to a new young Ensign or Second Lieutenant - while an Ensign may outrank and CPO, a smart ensign will listen to the advice/guidance of a CPO who may have as much time in the service as the ensign has been alive.

Why not give that CPO a rank of an ensign or a lieutenant then?

 

[Mysterion]

Why not give that CPO a rank of an ensign or a lieutenant then?

Why? CPOs and Ensigns fulfill entirely different functions in the organizational structure.

 

[Longinus]

Why? CPOs and Ensigns fulfill entirely different functions in the organizational structure.

How? At least in Star Trek this doesn't seem to be the case. Geordi and O'Brien do basically the same thing.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And I always thought it silly that the Trek shows always have the senior officers doing hands-on work.

Actually, that's the type of leadership that I like to see. One where they lead by example and doing work!

 

[Tenacity]

Why?

bosses
senior managers
junior managers
senior supervisors
junior supervisors
team leads
laborers/workers
new hires

officer
nco
enlisted

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

bosses
senior managers
junior managers
senior supervisors
junior supervisors
team leads
laborers/workers
new hires

officer
nco
enlisted

Which is another example - with emergency service - of a permeable divide between different levels in a heirachical system that rocks the "no up and out" thing.

 

[The Wormhole]

Actually, that's the type of leadership that I like to see. One where they lead by example and doing work!

It's the kind of thing we'd all like to see, but it's not really realistic. Indeed, where I work managers actually get chewed out by their superiors for doing work themselves instead of getting their staff to do it. I actually saw someone removed from management training for doing something themselves instead of telling someone else to do it.

Of course the reason for why we see the senior officers always doing stuff on Star Trek is because they're the main cast and we need the main cast to do things. Even Disco trying to shift the focus away from the senior officers isn't really helping since we still see everything fall to the main cast even when it doesn't make sense. Like Stamets doing engineering related things despite all the trouble they've gone to establishing he's not an engineer. Or Culber being the go-to guy for medical stuff even when he's not on active duty.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It's the kind of thing we'd all like to see, but it's not really realistic. Indeed, where I work managers actually get chewed out by their superiors for doing work themselves instead of getting their staff to do it. I actually saw someone removed from management training for doing something themselves instead of telling someone else to do it.

Where do you work? I want to chew out their management for not doing any work and being lazy arses for sitting on their butts.

Just being in management doesn't mean you sit on your butts all day writing TPS reports.

There is still work that the Management has to do along with SuperVise, and Oversee the quality of the work that the workers that they are in charge of do. Then write up reports about the quality of the work from the workers.

Management isn't supposed to always sit on their butts.

 

[The Wormhole]

Where do you work? I want to chew out their management for not doing any work and being lazy arses for sitting on their butts.

Just being in management doesn't mean you sit on your butts all day writing TPS reports.

There is still work that the Management has to do along with SuperVise, and Oversee the quality of the work that the workers that they are in charge of do. Then write up reports about the quality of the work from the workers.

Management isn't supposed to always sit on their butts.

I work in the retail business. "A manager manages, a manager does not work" is actually the core of management training.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I work in the retail business. "A manager manages, a manager does not work" is actually the core of management training.

Which Retailer is this so I can give them a piece of my mind?