Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

[Ragitsu]

but still has major problems. That's basically the POV of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and is a major reason why it remains the greatest ST series ever.

I don't consider war crimes committed by protagonists (some of whom are still considered "badass" after the fact) and Section 31 as a covert necessary evil to be fixtures of the optimistic future Star Trek is supposed to embody. I wholeheartedly reject the opinion that DS9 is "the greatest".

 

[Sci]

I don't consider war crimes committed by protagonists

What makes you think the narrative endorsed those war crimes?

and Section 31 as a covert necessary evil

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was unambiguous in its depiction of Section 31 as an un-necessary evil whose actions ultimately harmed the Federation.

 

[Ragitsu]

What makes you think the narrative endorsed those war crimes?



Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was unambiguous in its depiction of Section 31 as an un-necessary evil whose actions ultimately harmed the Federation.

Badass protagonists in spite of their war crimes, necessary evil secret police (because "rough men stand ready" and all that crap) and "Dukat wasn't that bad". When sentiments such as these turn up with alarming frequency in the viewership, then something went wrong along the way.

 

[DonIago]

I'd like to believe that says more about those viewers (or raises valid philosophical questions, depending on the specific issue) than it does about the writing of the series.

 

[Sci]

Badass protagonists in spite of their war crimes, necessary evil secret police (because "rough men stand ready" and all that crap) and "Dukat wasn't that bad". When sentiments such as these turn up with alarming frequency in the viewership, then something went wrong along the way.

I think those kinds of ideas will always turn up in large fandoms, because the authoritarian personality type tends to persist in roughly one-third of any given population. I don't think it's an indication something went wrong with the production of the show.

 

[Ragitsu]

I'd like to believe that says more about those viewers (or raises valid philosophical questions, depending on the specific issue) than it does about the writing of the series.

Admittedly, the loudest voices do rise above the din and I wouldn't be opposed to looking at polls on these various topics (despite any resultant inaccuracies), but its telling that no other subset of the franchise has - for example - fans who stand behind a villain quite the way certain DS9 fans do with Dukat.

 

[Sci]

Admittedly, the loudest voices do rise above the din and I wouldn't be opposed to looking at polls on these various topics (despite any resultant inaccuracies), but its telling that no other subset of the franchise has - for example - fans who stand behind a villain quite the way certain DS9 fans do with Dukat.

I think that says more about Marc Alaimo's charisma than anything else. DSN as a narrative was unambiguous in depicting Dukat as evil, and the writers even decided to work to double down on that in response to those fans who refused to accept it.

 

[DonIago]

The worst evils always wear a pleasant face.

 

[fireproof78]

for example - fans who stand behind a villain quite the way certain DS9 fans do with Dukat.

I think it depends largely on the villain. Khan was largely lauded even in TOS, and considered one of the best villains. What Trek tends to do more, and which Dukat cuts against the grain in doing, is be moved to the protagonists side. Kor in DS9 went from someone willing to murder hundreds, to break Spock's mind, to a war hero in DS9. The Klingons go from being aggressive brutes who kill Starfleet officers and cheer about it to being allies again.

Ultimately, what DS9 does that keeps in the upper tier's of Trekdom is ask a long held question of humanity "How far do you go in the name of security?" You have Dukat who goes too far, but also Sisko, and Section 31 and Leyton and others. It's not a matter of agreement with the "badass protagonist" but the appeal that doing things that have to be done has a certain appeal even to those who have a genuine desire to do the right thing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think that says more about Marc Alaimo's charisma than anything else.

RIchard III once said: "I can smile. And murder while I smile."

Dukat sure as hell can.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think it's fair to state that, unlike Star Wars, if you're a Space Fascist that there's no redemption for you.

Dukat crossed the Moral Event Horizon long ago and kept running.

 

[Ragitsu]

Maybe if the show's creators had elected to have foam and/or blood trickling from his lower lip, more people would have gotten the message.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it's fair to state that, unlike Star Wars, if you're a Space Fascist that there's no redemption for you.

Dukat crossed the Moral Event Horizon long ago and kept running.

I mean, maybe? What about the Klingons and bringing Kor and Kang and the like alongside?

Dukat was pretty much driven by dominating regardless of who was in his way. I think he made his choice to jump over the moral event horizon long ago, and even when given an opportunity to realign he immediately found a force that would ensure his personal power.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

The Federation says the deal the Cardassians got was an incredibly lucrative one.

They then proceeded to continue to work against the Maquis while ignoring Cardassian violations of the treaty ("The Wounded", "For the Uniform").

That's not at all what happens in The Wounded.

The only treaty violations in that episode come when Captain Maxwell invades their territory and murders six hundred Cardassians without provocation. Maxwell makes allegations of Cardassian violations to justify his actions, but cannot come up with any evidence to support them. Short of breaking the treaty themselves (and starting a war), the Federation cannot prove Cardassia is in violation. But in the end, Picard tells the Cardassians that he personally believes Maxwell's allegations and warns them the Federation will be watching Cardassia closely.

So kind of the opposite of what you said, actually.

 

[Farscape One]

While what you said is accurate, look at Gul Macet's eyes when the Enterprise tries to scan the Cardassian freighter. You can tell he was worried what Picard would do because of the scans being reflected.

Legally, Maxwell was in the wrong. But he was right in that the Cardassians were just getting ready for another conflict. The treaty was a ruse so they can regroup, lick their wounds, and come back stronger.

 

[Airmandan]

Eddington was also a member of Starfleet Security and was portrayed to be much more of a strategist than a typical security type. He probably was much more aware of background goings on with how Starfleet and the Federation were operating from. Seeing the security and operating apparatus from the background could easily disillusion some. I know it has from my perspective.

 

[Charles Phipps]

There's also the joke that Eddington was transferred because Starfleet didn't trust Odo.

 

[Ragitsu]

Eddington was also a member of Starfleet Security and was portrayed to be much more of a strategist than a typical security type. He probably was much more aware of background goings on with how Starfleet and the Federation were operating from. Seeing the security and operating apparatus from the background could easily disillusion some. I know it has from my perspective.

Problematically, relying on an assumption rather than actually seeing those alleged underhanded actions does little or nothing to endear the character to viewers.

 

[MarkusTay]

Look at a map of ST 'Known Space' - The Federation is nearly as big as all other space-states combined. When it comes to assimilation, humans got the Borg beat.

Why was the Federation even involved in the problems between Bajor and Cardassia? And in the end, both groups were our 'fiends', and possible future UFP members? Getting involved in far-away 'brush-fire wars' so that eventually you'll have another group to add to your side... sounds familiar. The U.S. only fought a 'cold war' with Russia (and possibly China, except we technically didn't even recognize them as a country back then), but the Federation appears to be fighting a cold war on every front, with everyone. The Klingons land on some backwater world to talk to the inhabitants, and Starfleet is beaming down an away team two seconds later. 'Control through kindness' is a real thing. Is it evil? Not exactly... but then, the Borg make the same point; assimilate everyone and there is no more conflict, bigotry, starvation, lack of other resources, etc. Once everyone is 'the same', you have a nice little civilization of well-behaved drones. So whats the difference between programming fed directly into your brain, and being brainwashed by your culture (and insane amount of rules/laws) to think you are living in paradise? Is it paradise, if you don't earn it? Its hollow. Thats the point.

Eddington's point is that in a meta way, Rodenberry's dream doesn't work. its a cultural dead-end. 99% of the advancements made by humans were done because of adversity (conflict, environmental, etc.). Without an opposing force we have stagnation. Good little worker-bees in a hive.

 

[Ragitsu]

Eddington's point is that in a meta way, Rodenberry's dream doesn't work. its a cultural dead-end. 99% of the advancements made by humans were done because of adversity (conflict, environmental, etc.). Without an opposing force we have stagnation. Good little worker-bees in a hive.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies