Without spoiling anything for you, it's a lot clearer now in light of Star Trek: Discovery's first season, though there may yet be more to learn as the show progresses.
-MMoM
Earth-Romulan wars
- Thread starter Valenti
- Start date
-MMoM
While it didn't technically violate the timeline, I don't think it made much sense to put a full-blown war that close to TOS. Especially a war hot tempered people like Kirk, Scott and McCoy would've taken part of.
Axanar.
What does that have to do with Star Trek canon?
No connection whatsoever between the Battle of Axanar or the related (?) Peace Mission and Klingons is drawn in canon references. Personally, I'd rather speculate that it was over tritanium...
Except the Organians prevented them from ever "going at it" in that instance:
CLAYMARE: All instruments of violence on this planet now radiate a temperature of 350 degrees. They are inoperative.
KOR: My fleet!
AYELBORNE: The same conditions exist on both the star fleets. There will be no battle.
KOR: Ridiculous!
AYELBORNE: I suggest you contact them. You too, Captain. Your ship is now within range of your communications device.
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise, come in.
SULU: Captain, I can't explain it. We were just closing in on the Klingon fleet when every control on our ship became too hot to handle. Our power's gone. Our phaser banks are dead.
KIRK: Stand by, Sulu.
KOR: My fleet, it's helpless.
KIRK: What have you done?
AYELBORNE: As I stand here, I also stand upon the home planet of the Klingon Empire, and the home planet of your Federation, Captain. I'm going to put a stop to this insane war.
KOR: You're what!?
KIRK: You're talking nonsense.
AYELBORNE: It is being done.
KIRK: You can't just stop the fleet. What gives you the right?
KOR: You can't interfere. What happens in space is not your business!
AYELBORNE: Unless both sides agree to an immediate cessation of hostilities, all your armed forces, wherever they may be, will be immediately immobilized.
KIRK: We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons! They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens! They're openly aggressive! They've boasted that they'll take over half the galaxy.
KOR: And why not? We're the stronger! You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade! You've been asking for war!
KIRK: You're the ones who issued the ultimatum to withdraw from the disputed areas!
KOR: They are not disputed! They're clearly ours! And now you step in with some kind of trick?
AYELBORNE: It is no trick, Commander. We have simply put an end to your war. All your military forces, wherever they are, are now completely paralyzed.
CLAYMARE: We find interference in other people's affairs most disgusting, but you gentlemen have given us no choice.
KIRK: You should be the first to be on our side. Two hundred hostages killed!
AYELBORNE: No one has been killed, Captain.
KOR: My fleet!
AYELBORNE: The same conditions exist on both the star fleets. There will be no battle.
KOR: Ridiculous!
AYELBORNE: I suggest you contact them. You too, Captain. Your ship is now within range of your communications device.
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise, come in.
SULU: Captain, I can't explain it. We were just closing in on the Klingon fleet when every control on our ship became too hot to handle. Our power's gone. Our phaser banks are dead.
KIRK: Stand by, Sulu.
KOR: My fleet, it's helpless.
KIRK: What have you done?
AYELBORNE: As I stand here, I also stand upon the home planet of the Klingon Empire, and the home planet of your Federation, Captain. I'm going to put a stop to this insane war.
KOR: You're what!?
KIRK: You're talking nonsense.
AYELBORNE: It is being done.
KIRK: You can't just stop the fleet. What gives you the right?
KOR: You can't interfere. What happens in space is not your business!
AYELBORNE: Unless both sides agree to an immediate cessation of hostilities, all your armed forces, wherever they may be, will be immediately immobilized.
KIRK: We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons! They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens! They're openly aggressive! They've boasted that they'll take over half the galaxy.
KOR: And why not? We're the stronger! You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade! You've been asking for war!
KIRK: You're the ones who issued the ultimatum to withdraw from the disputed areas!
KOR: They are not disputed! They're clearly ours! And now you step in with some kind of trick?
AYELBORNE: It is no trick, Commander. We have simply put an end to your war. All your military forces, wherever they are, are now completely paralyzed.
CLAYMARE: We find interference in other people's affairs most disgusting, but you gentlemen have given us no choice.
KIRK: You should be the first to be on our side. Two hundred hostages killed!
AYELBORNE: No one has been killed, Captain.
But, speaking of which, where were you and @Timo with all this back when we last "went at it" on this subject, and I said...
...eh? Do you realize how many hours you could have saved me? DO YOU???
-MMoM
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But Kirk clearly did take part in some war, as he's got the warrior reputation in "Whom Gods Destroy". And we don't want to brand him a child soldier, so mid-2250s or later is preferable for Kirk's War.
Hard to tell whether Scotty or Bones fought in any wars. Both had a civilian segment to their past careers, supposedly, even if the evidence is ambiguous on McCoy Prime; they might have stood out on Kirk's War. But both might equally well have taken part in bloody battles that they simply don't want to talk about much.
Also, the hotter the war, the more it makes sense for Kirk to wax poetic about the current peace in TOS (say, "Let That Be, Let That Beee!"). It's not exactly serene and quiet in the 2260s, after all, so we certainly could use the contrast.
Timo Saloniemi
The more someone knows about their family history the more they feel connected to the past events in them. Thus my feelings about World War II, World War I, the US Civil War, and the Revolutionary War are probably a bit different than they would be if I didn't know that some of my ancestors and relatives fought in those wars.
Thus I once read that Queen Elizabeth II once commented about Henry VIII (died 1547) in the familiar way that someone might talk about a relative they have met personally.
In 1385 two knights in the English army invading Scotland, Lord le Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor, noticed that they used identical arms of "azure, a bend or". Their disagreement went to the court of chivalry and eventually King Richard II decided in 1390 that Grosvenor must assume a new coat of arms. Grosvenor chose "Azure, a garb or".
490 years later, Grosvenor's descendant Hugh Grosvenor, First Duke of Westminster, had a famous race horse that won the Derby in 1880 - named Bend Or. His grandson Hugh Grosvenor (1879-1953), 2nd Duke of Westminster, was known for his whole life by the nickname of "Bendor".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrope_v_Grosvenor
Any little boy in the family of the German Princes of Ruess can tell you the personal name of any of his male ancestors for 800 years in the past, and predict the first names of his male descendants 800 years in the future pretty confidentially - they have all been named Heinrich (Henry) since the reign of Emperor Henry VI.
Then of course there is that conflict that happens between TOS and TNG:
RIKER [To worf]: That's what your people said a few years ago about humans. Think how many died on both sides in that war. Would you and I be here now like this if we hadn't been able to let go of the anger and the blame?
RIKER [To worf]: That's what your people said a few years ago about humans. Think how many died on both sides in that war. Would you and I be here now like this if we hadn't been able to let go of the anger and the blame?
...Should we take that formulation as establishing that this was before the time when Riker and Worf were active players themselves?
At the other end of the acceptable timespan, "a few years ago" could mean "a century back" in a context like this. And taking the analogy-context of the phrase literally, Riker is supposed to refer to events before the Klingons "made peace with" the Federation, or, more exactly, before the Feds made peace with the Klingons. This may have happened many times in Trek history, but logically Riker should be talking about the very first time, as this first time would prove the concept that Worf considers "impossible", the analogous Klingon/Romulan peace.
In that interpretation, we can't learn anything relevant about any conflict postdating the TOS one here, as a peace was made after the TOS conflict (on the Fed side at least).
Of course, "a few years ago" Klingons were raiding UFP outposts, as per "Aquiel". Should this be considered a major conflict, one allowed by the dialogue of "The Enemy" even if not necessarily logically supported by it? Or is this just how Klingons perceive peace?
Timo Saloniemi
At the other end of the acceptable timespan, "a few years ago" could mean "a century back" in a context like this. And taking the analogy-context of the phrase literally, Riker is supposed to refer to events before the Klingons "made peace with" the Federation, or, more exactly, before the Feds made peace with the Klingons. This may have happened many times in Trek history, but logically Riker should be talking about the very first time, as this first time would prove the concept that Worf considers "impossible", the analogous Klingon/Romulan peace.
In that interpretation, we can't learn anything relevant about any conflict postdating the TOS one here, as a peace was made after the TOS conflict (on the Fed side at least).
Of course, "a few years ago" Klingons were raiding UFP outposts, as per "Aquiel". Should this be considered a major conflict, one allowed by the dialogue of "The Enemy" even if not necessarily logically supported by it? Or is this just how Klingons perceive peace?
Timo Saloniemi
I'd say the raids mentioned in Aquiel were just Klingon Commanders pushing the limits of their command rather than a full conflict! I mean there is probably a bit of resentment to the UFP by younger Klingons who have read their history books and realise they could be the masters of the galaxy if not for the Federation!
JB
JB
I would need to see a couple of real world instances where someone used "a few years" to mean a century or more before I accept this statement.
According to The Undiscovered Country, there should have been peace with the Klingons and a peace treaty for at least three years before the explosion of Praxis. But TNG "The Emissary" shows that there must have been a shooting war, a hot war, between the Federation and the Klingons about 75 years before that episode, and thus about the time of The Undiscovered Country. Since that hot war could not happen after The Undiscovered Country, or it would make the sacrifices of Kirk & co. in vain, it must have happened before The Undiscovered Country, and ended at least three years before The Undiscovered Country.
The Khitomer Accords were first mentioned in the DS9 era and pertained to the Feds and the Klingons hanging together in an alliance and agreeing to what star systems each other possesses, apparently - the subject matter arose when Gowron decided to withdraw from the Accords, stop listening to the Feds, and start disputing ownership of systems like Archanis. The assumption obviously was that these accords would originally have been signed as the result of the events of ST6:TUC, perhaps on planet Khitomer itself, back in the late 23rd century, although this was never quite stated.
And yes, oh yes, NX-01 used dilithium. The whole TNG-style propulsion setup was described in painful detail in the 4th season episode "Bound" where engineer Kelby, under the intoxicating influence of the Orion women, babbles about his line of work. The first mention of dilithium aboard was in the 1st season "Cold Front" already, though. However, we never quite saw a dilithium crystal on NX-01, so we don't know the exact type used in the 2150s.
Timo Saloniemi
And yes, oh yes, NX-01 used dilithium. The whole TNG-style propulsion setup was described in painful detail in the 4th season episode "Bound" where engineer Kelby, under the intoxicating influence of the Orion women, babbles about his line of work. The first mention of dilithium aboard was in the 1st season "Cold Front" already, though. However, we never quite saw a dilithium crystal on NX-01, so we don't know the exact type used in the 2150s.
Timo Saloniemi
A shooting war was shown and stated in ST4:TVH: ships from both sides take potshots at each other, blasting the opponent to bits, and "there can be no peace". This already caters for the plot of "The Emissary" where Klingons can be expected to shoot first and throw insults at the corpses later.
Why peace with Klingons three years prior to TUC? During the three years of cataloging gaseous anomalies, Sulu could have destroyed three K'Tingas, eleven B'Rels and ninety-eight N'Signfc'ts, and lost three wingmen. Kirk or Picard or Sisko never stopped exploring for fighting or vice versa, either.
OTOH, why no hot war after TUC? People were dissatisfied with the peace. Even though Kirk stopped two specific men from having a war, the rest might have proceeded with it. Say, after Kirk was out of the picture, so as not to complicate things dramawise. There's no clear evidence of a war not happening anywhere in Trek, as we painfully learn whenever a war is stated to have happened without the audience noticing.
Timo Saloniemi
The Khitomer Accords were signed in TUC which was made in 91 so how could DS9 have mentioned them first? DS9 first was made in what 93/94? Khitomer was originally mentioned in TNG and then retconned for the last TOS movie!
JB
JB
That's not how Trek works.
The first-ever mention of Khitomer Accords was in DS9 "Broken Link", which aired in 1996. There was no mention of any Accords in the first episode to mention planet Khitomer, TNG "Sins of the Father", which aired in 1990. Nor was there any mention of Accords in TUC, which premiered in 1991, and showed a "neutral" Khitomer when the TNG episode had established a Klingon colony attacked by Romulans.
So the name of the place came first. The concept of the place was altered for the purposes of a movie next. And these fancy Accords were burdened on the place the very last.
Timo Saloniemi
The first-ever mention of Khitomer Accords was in DS9 "Broken Link", which aired in 1996. There was no mention of any Accords in the first episode to mention planet Khitomer, TNG "Sins of the Father", which aired in 1990. Nor was there any mention of Accords in TUC, which premiered in 1991, and showed a "neutral" Khitomer when the TNG episode had established a Klingon colony attacked by Romulans.
So the name of the place came first. The concept of the place was altered for the purposes of a movie next. And these fancy Accords were burdened on the place the very last.
Timo Saloniemi
The Excelsior was described as "The Great Experiment" in TSFS, and apparently was very successful since Excelsior class starships were used by Starfleet for about eighty years. It is commonly, through perhaps foolishly, assumed that TUC happens just a few years after TSFS, and thus when there should be only a few top of the line Excelsior class starships in starfleet. Thus it seems rather foolish to send one of the few top of the line ships in the fleet on a relatively minor scientific survey for three years in the midst of a shooting war with a major power.
The Enterprise also has equipment for cataloging gaseous anomalies, so presumably just returned from a routine scientific survey. And maybe other ships were involved in surveying gaseous anomalies.
So clearly there is already a Federation-Klingon peace treaty in force at the beginning of TUC. And the only question is how long ago the peace treaty was signed. It seems to me that Sulu's mission with one of the Federations mightiest starships should have started after the peace treaty was signed, though probably not very long afterwards considering the data in "Emissary". Of course if the Federation has dedicated warship in mothballs, including space battleships and dreadnoughts, and takes them out of mothballs whenever a big war starts, maybe the Excelsior wouldn't have been needed for the great war with the Klingons and could have been sent on a research mission.
It is my opinion that, given the nature of Klingon society, it is rather common for Klingon groups to break off and more their own independent governments. And especially after the Khitomer Conference several dissatisfied Klingon groups would have broken away from the main group seen in TNG, the Klingon Imperial Empire, and some of them could have fought wars with the Federation.
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