Duras & The Dominion War

[DevilEyes]

I always thought that it was Gowron, too. It was hinted in the scene when he comes to speak to K'Ehleyr and unsuccessfully tries to bribe her. When she refuses his offer with contempt ("You speak like a Ferengi!"), he gets angry and says that K'mpec was also stubborn and didn't listen, and now he's dead. K'Ehleyr herself later says at a meeting with Picard, Riker and Worf, "He implied I would end up like K'mpec if I didn't cooperate".

Gowron always seemed shifty and slimy, he wasn't a "good guy" but just the "lesser of the two evils" compared to Duras. But the problem is, when you have to choose the lesser of the two evils, you still end up with an evil.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I never thought it was Gowron who poisoned K'mpec. His later actions on DS9 notwithstanding (i.e. his discrediting of Martok), Gowron has always been an honorable sort. He would never do something sneaky like poisoning someone.

And as I said, Duras was obviously a Romulan collaborator, so therefore he has no honor. And thus, poisoning K'mpec would be right up his alley.

 

[DevilEyes]

How was he an honorable sort? Based on what? Trying to bribe K'Ehleyr?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Gowron was like a Klingon version of Gul Dukat in some ways.

He helps the Federation if it's for the greater good-(which means something that benefits him,) and he'll quickly forget any allies in the name of power.

One thing I'll say for him, he wasn't a coward-he'll face you one on one..

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One thing I'll say for him, he wasn't a coward-he'll face you one on one..

Exactly. He would never have poisoned K'mpec, he would have openly challenged him in traditional combat.

And I don't agree that Gowron would turn on his allies as quickly as Dukat obviously did.

 

[USS Avenger]

I had always figured Gowron for the K'mpec poisoning. Like other have stated his conversation with K'hleyr certainly seemed to point in that direction. He seemed like a slimy, dirty, corupt politician. That said Duras was in league with the Romulans, so anything is possible.

As for how a Duras led Empire would have affected the Dominion War? I think the Khitomer accords would have been broken long before the discovery of the wormhole and the Dominion. Gowron would have been put to death and the house of Mogh still dishonored. However, than we would have had a two-parter on TNG with Picard and Worf infiltrating the Empire and proving all of Duras links to the Romulans, Worf killing Duras in one on one combat and than handing the high council over to Kurn. By the time the wormhole is discovered, the alliance between the Federation and the Klingons has grown strong enough that the Dominion can't break it apart, Cardassia never gets invaded and the Alpha quadrant stand togther as a whole to withstand Dominion aggression. The war on DS9 lasts only a season and consists mostly of raids and other underhanded tactics.

After writing all this I like the show we got much better.

 

[DevilEyes]

One thing I'll say for him, he wasn't a coward-he'll face you one on one..

Exactly. He would never have poisoned K'mpec, he would have openly challenged him in traditional combat.

Based on what? You can't just challenge a chancellor for no reason, or else there would be fights for the position all the time. The challenge can be issued on the basis of cowardice or dishonorable conduct by the chancellor.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I always thought that it was Gowron, too. It was hinted in the scene when he comes to speak to K'Ehleyr and unsuccessfully tries to bribe her. When she refuses his offer with contempt ("You speak like a Ferengi!"), he gets angry and says that K'mpec was also stubborn and didn't listen, and now he's dead. K'Ehleyr herself later says at a meeting with Picard, Riker and Worf, "He implied I would end up like K'mpec if I didn't cooperate".

Duras probably would have said the same thing. And just basing it on what they say isn't a good enough judgment. The better question to ask is, "Who stands to gain the most from killing K'mpec?" Gowron certainly did not stand to gain anything without the help of Picard and the Enterprise, and he probably wasn't even counting on that.

On top of that, Ron Moore said in an online chat that their intention was that Duras killed him and that he thought it was fairly clear.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Well, it wasn't. From the episode itself, you can't conclude it's Duras. It may have been either of them. (Which makes the episode better... it leaves things more ambiguous and doesn't wrap everything up in a neat little package at the end.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One thing I'll say for him, he wasn't a coward-he'll face you one on one..

Exactly. He would never have poisoned K'mpec, he would have openly challenged him in traditional combat.

Based on what? You can't just challenge a chancellor for no reason, or else there would be fights for the position all the time. The challenge can be issued on the basis of cowardice or dishonorable conduct by the chancellor.

Remember that one Klingon - Kulge, I think it was - who we see challenge Gowron? All Kulge had to say was that Gowron was weak and unable to lead the Empire. He didn't have to present any evidence or proof, all that was required was an accusation. If Gowron had wanted to, he could have done the same with K'mpec.

And how do you know there *aren't* fights for the chancellorship all the time?

 

[InklingStar]

Exactly. He would never have poisoned K'mpec, he would have openly challenged him in traditional combat.

Based on what? You can't just challenge a chancellor for no reason, or else there would be fights for the position all the time. The challenge can be issued on the basis of cowardice or dishonorable conduct by the chancellor.

Remember that one Klingon - Kulge, I think it was - who we see challenge Gowron? All Kulge had to say was that Gowron was weak and unable to lead the Empire. He didn't have to present any evidence or proof, all that was required was an accusation. If Gowron had wanted to, he could have done the same with K'mpec.

And how do you know there *aren't* fights for the chancellorship all the time?

From the way Worf talked, it seemed like Gowron was under no obligation to accept the challenge, he just liked the idea of a fight. I can't imagine K'mpec winning any combat challenges near the end of his life.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ A challenge that's offered legally (as Kulge's was) *cannot* be refused. Especially not by the Chancellor. Can you imagine how bad it would make Gowron look if he'd done that?

 

[DevilEyes]

Based on what? You can't just challenge a chancellor for no reason, or else there would be fights for the position all the time. The challenge can be issued on the basis of cowardice or dishonorable conduct by the chancellor.

Remember that one Klingon - Kulge, I think it was - who we see challenge Gowron? All Kulge had to say was that Gowron was weak and unable to lead the Empire. He didn't have to present any evidence or proof, all that was required was an accusation. If Gowron had wanted to, he could have done the same with K'mpec.

And how do you know there *aren't* fights for the chancellorship all the time?

From the way Worf talked, it seemed like Gowron was under no obligation to accept the challenge, he just liked the idea of a fight. I can't imagine K'mpec winning any combat challenges near the end of his life.

If issuing challenges left and right with no provocation were a regular practice in the Empire, K'mpec probably would've been killed years before... He was never the most physically fit Klingon out there, at least according to Worf's nurse, I can't imagine that he was really the best fighter in the Empire!

I assume that the challenge is the option of last resort when a chancellor is really deemed by the majority of the Council and the nobles to be engaging in a conduct that is dishonorable or cowardly, as they would say - or rather, that gets the Empire into trouble. If there were challenges all the time, the Empire would be in constant state of political upheaval, and few chancellors would be able to hold onto power very long... and those who would remain on the position the longest would be those more suited for going into combat than leading an Empire. The Klingons aren't as stupid as they seem - they know that you need a chancellor who is smart and can do the job well, rather than a moron who fights well.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Just because K'mpec was fat doesn't mean he couldn't fight. Picard did point out that K'mpec served longer than any other chancellor in Klingon history...I'd say that counts for something.

 

[Cepstrum]

I thought the reason the Klingons turned to fight the UFP was because of the manipulation of the changeling Martok. He made Gowron paranoid and helped poison the UFP-Klingon alliance.

So if Duras had been in charge, are you saying he would have quit the alliance and fought the UFP before the Dominion arrived? I'd think that wouldn't be too popular with many Klingons, for they might see turning on their staunch allies as treacherous. They hated Romulans a lot more. Duras would have to manufacture a just cause to fight. And the UFP would do everything to preserve the peace. The war, if there was one, might have been over by the time the Dominion arrived. And if the UFP and Klingons had meanwhile reconciled, it might have a *lot* harder to get the Klingons to turn on the UFP based on faulty evidence so soon. So they might not have attacked Cardassia and the Dominion.

That would change a *lot*, for the main reason Dukat invited the Dominion over was because of the devastation wrought by the Klingon invasion (and for political opportunism).

 

[Ryan8bit]

^ Well, it wasn't. From the episode itself, you can't conclude it's Duras. It may have been either of them. (Which makes the episode better... it leaves things more ambiguous and doesn't wrap everything up in a neat little package at the end.)

It's not entirely ambiguous. There are lots of little things that tip the scales towards the poisoner being Duras even if they don't explicitly spell it out for people. Sure, that's nice because then people can interpret it in their own way, but ultimately the portrayal methods used by these writers were very black and white. Duras was meant to be the bad guy here, and this was clear. Gowron was only there to serve as a red herring. There were no shades of gray.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Well, it wasn't. From the episode itself, you can't conclude it's Duras. It may have been either of them. (Which makes the episode better... it leaves things more ambiguous and doesn't wrap everything up in a neat little package at the end.)

It's not entirely ambiguous. There are lots of little things that tip the scales towards the poisoner being Duras even if they don't explicitly spell it out for people. Sure, that's nice because then people can interpret it in their own way, but ultimately the portrayal methods used by these writers were very black and white. Duras was meant to be the bad guy here, and this was clear. Gowron was only there to serve as a red herring. There were no shades of gray.

So your only evidence is that Duras was a bad guy, and since he was a bad guy, Gowron couldn't possibly be a bad guy as well?

Please tell me how Gowron was a good guy? He tried to bribe K'Ehleyr, and threatened her. He always seemed as an asshole and a corrupt power-hungry politician. What we late saw of him in DS9 was completely in character.

 

[Cepstrum]

^^^

I could be misremembering, but I thought I read that the writer intended Gowron to be the poisoner. That surprised me, for I always had thought it was Duras.

But I am probably misremembering. I just thought in one of Ron Moore's chats (which I recently read through), he fingered Gowron. I can't verify that, and I actually don't even recall if Moore had anything to do with the episode. I just know he at one time became "the Klingon guy" and wrote almost all of the Klingon stories, so I just assumed he wrote it. But he didn't join TNG until season 3.

Don't pay attention to me: I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Cepstrum]

^^^^

oops. I didn't have time to search through all the RDM AOL chats on my little iPod, but I looked at Memory Alpha to see if I could find anything. If it can be trusted, it quotes a 1997 AOL chat in which Moore, a cowriter of the episode, said:

"Our intention was that Duras had poisoned him."

for what it's worth....

 

[DevilEyes]

^^^

I could be misremembering, but I thought I read that the writer intended Gowron to be the poisoner. That surprised me, for I always had thought it was Duras.

But I am probably misremembering. I just thought in one of Ron Moore's chats (which I recently read through), he fingered Gowron. I can't verify that, and I actually don't even recall if Moore had anything to do with the episode. I just know he at one time became "the Klingon guy" and wrote almost all of the Klingon stories, so I just assumed he wrote it. But he didn't join TNG until season 3.

Don't pay attention to me: I don't know what I'm talking about.

Actually, it's the opposite, according to Memory Alpha, Moore said the writers meant it to be Duras.

But it's not clear in the episode, and I've always suspected Gowron, though it could go either way. I actually think it's better that it remained ambiguous, you don't get the ending where everything is wrapped up in a neat little bow.

edit: Beat me to it...