• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Dune [Part 3] Messiah 2027 (28, 29, 30...)

Honestly, with how things are in the world right now, I can understand him not wanting to us a word that has religious meaning in the title. Not saying that that is his reasoning, but I can get it.

The more logical reason would be people thinking why was part 2 simply part 2, and part three called Messiah. I wouldn't be surprised if there are enough people that have no idea parts 1 and 2 were one book and part three is book 2.

Or people could just try to understand that not everything is about the current news.

There were plenty of religion-prompted things going on in the world when Frank Herbert published his books. Somehow we all survived book titles like "Dune MESSIAH" or "GOD-Emperor of Dune" or "HERETICS of Dune".
 
Or people could just try to understand that not everything is about the current news.

There were plenty of religion-prompted things going on in the world when Frank Herbert published his books. Somehow we all survived book titles like "Dune MESSIAH" or "GOD-Emperor of Dune" or "HERETICS of Dune".

Oh, I agree on a personal level. However, people these days feel the need to post every thought they ever have on any subject in long ragefilled video's on SoMe. And it has effected how shows and movies are put together. Studios and creators are not looking forward to having every little thing that MIGHT come across as offensive to some be bashed on the internet.
 
Studios and creators are not looking forward to having every little thing that MIGHT come across as offensive to some be bashed on the internet.

You want to see people bashing what the studios do? Just drop in on any Handmaid's Tale discussion on FB or YT.

It's annoying either way. I've read both THT and Dune enough times since they were published that I know both of them backwards and forwards. And so many people just will not read the damn books, and keep asking the same questions over and over and over. The books explain what they're asking, but nooOOOooo, they'd rather get into the 847,529,024th argument over whatever.

I guess it "helps the algorithm", which seems to be the main thing now. A genuine exchange of information and ideas and learning seems to be well down the list of what's important.
 
Honestly, with how things are in the world right now, I can understand him not wanting to us a word that has religious meaning in the title. Not saying that that is his reasoning, but I can get it.

The more logical reason would be people thinking why was part 2 simply part 2, and part three called Messiah. I wouldn't be surprised if there are enough people that have no idea parts 1 and 2 were one book and part three is book 2.
I personally think he might combine elements of Messiah and Children of Dune depending on how he spreads out the story elements.

I doubt that he is concerned of the politics of the moment; he seems to be trying to leave options open and be flexible.
 
The last thing we want is certain groups burning or banning "Dune Messiah" from schools leading up to the premiere

Semi off topic

I even saw that now "Rush Hour" with Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker has a disclaimer at the beginning regarding the humor.


Seriously?

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
It would be strange to find it on such lists as it hadn't ever been, even at the height of book banning movements I've seen in my area.

I think people are putting the cart before the horse.
 
I personally think he might combine elements of Messiah and Children of Dune depending on how he spreads out the story elements.

I doubt that he is concerned of the politics of the moment; he seems to be trying to leave options open and be flexible.

That is also a very good reason!

The last thing we want is certain groups burning or banning "Dune Messiah" from schools leading up to the premiere

Semi off topic

I even saw that now "Rush Hour" with Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker has a disclaimer at the beginning regarding the humor.


Seriously?

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

This has been happening with some old Disney cartoons as well I believe. And I think it's a good idea. Over the decades, media has seen jokes that were ALWAYS offensive but people said it's all ok because we all do it. And many minorities said nothing, because they were not taken seriously. 'C'mon, it's just a joke about your culture and history, take it easy.'
As someone who was bullied to the point that suicide was an option, I was always told I should be fine with the bullying because it was just a joke.... The people who are making the jokes DO NOT get to decide if it hurts people or not.
Now.... I also agree with you that there is also the other side of that coin where people take offense at just about anything, like I mentioned before. People who would get upset because a movie has the word Messiah in the title.

But I recently rewatched the first Police Academy movie. And the first Ghostbusters.... I grew up with these movies, and I also understand WHEN they were made. But a lot of the jokes in these movies would be considered not done by today's standard. And we should not bury that 3, 4, 5 or even 9 decades ago people had a different standard. We shouldn't bury history. But a warning saying that some jokes could be considered offensive because the movies was filmed in a different era..... Nah, I don't see an issue there.
 
That is also a very good reason!



This has been happening with some old Disney cartoons as well I believe. And I think it's a good idea. Over the decades, media has seen jokes that were ALWAYS offensive but people said it's all ok because we all do it. And many minorities said nothing, because they were not taken seriously. 'C'mon, it's just a joke about your culture and history, take it easy.'
As someone who was bullied to the point that suicide was an option, I was always told I should be fine with the bullying because it was just a joke.... The people who are making the jokes DO NOT get to decide if it hurts people or not.
Now.... I also agree with you that there is also the other side of that coin where people take offense at just about anything, like I mentioned before. People who would get upset because a movie has the word Messiah in the title.

But I recently rewatched the first Police Academy movie. And the first Ghostbusters.... I grew up with these movies, and I also understand WHEN they were made. But a lot of the jokes in these movies would be considered not done by today's standard. And we should not bury that 3, 4, 5 or even 9 decades ago people had a different standard. We shouldn't bury history. But a warning saying that some jokes could be considered offensive because the movies was filmed in a different era..... Nah, I don't see an issue there.

There's an understandable wish for modern audiences to not have to deal with jokes that aren't funny anymore for very good reasons, or slurs that were once laughed off but aren't anymore, and so on. Only the viewer or reader can decide how far they're willing to put up with whatever the triggering content is.

For example...

I used to run a Yahoo group dedicated to reading and discussing time travel novels. One such novel that came up was Up the Line, by Robert Silverberg. That book was published in 1969, and contains some material that is considered unacceptable nowadays for reasons of sexism and racial slurs. One woman in the group was so outraged that she declared she would not finish the book, it was trash, and Silverberg was an awful person.

I've met Robert Silverberg, and he is NOT an awful person. The reader was mistaking the attitudes of the characters for the RL viewpoint of the author. Silverberg was offended when I brought this up in a discussion in his email group, and I don't blame him. Jud and Sam might be sexist creeps at times, and Metaxas is an outright pervert by my standards, but that doesn't take away from the intriguing spin on time travel in the book, or the unusual ending (Silverberg related that he had to have a very firm conversation with his editors who kept trying to "fix" it; people who have read it will know what I mean).

Anyway, Up the Line was optioned a few years ago, which I consider good news. It doesn't mean it's definitely going to be made into a movie, but the possibility exists. And yes, there are things that would have to be changed because audiences from 55 years ago would have been okay with what current audiences would not be okay with. Some rewrites of a few scenes would be necessary, but fortunately that wouldn't affect the overall story one bit.


Now take a different situation: I'm a fan of several Britcoms, one of which is Are You Being Served?. Certain jokes were considered okay when this show was first on, but wouldn't be acceptable now. And there's one episode that wasn't aired for a long time because it showed two men doing ballroom dancing. I would hope that modern audiences wouldn't care about that, as honestly it was nothing to be upset over. Just one man showing another one how to perform a particular dance, and I wouldn't consider any of it to be inappropriate.


And then there's a situation that came up a couple of months ago. I belong to a FB group dedicated to an old Canadian TV show called The Beachcombers, that ran for 19 years, from the 1970s-1990s. It's about a community of people living in a small town on the west coast of British Columbia. For some reason I will never be able to fathom, CBC has never made this series available on DVD, and has left the fans to pine for our favorite episodes (no pun intended) since most of them aren't available anywhere, or are hard to find.

One of them guest-starred Gordon Pinsent, in a memorable episode about a ghost. Some indigenous shaman beliefs are part of the plot. Someone managed to find this episode on YT, and a few weeks ago I was able to watch it again for the first time since the 1970s... and I was flabbergasted to see a warning slapped on it for "offensive content."

I suppose someone complained about the spiritual elements, and have no idea if it's the ghost part or the shamanism that's considered offensive. But given that one of the main actors in this episode (and a series regular) was an indigenous actor, I would have thought that if he had considered the plotline offensive, he'd have spoken up about it and it would either have been changed or scrapped.

Never read the book. Is it big story like the first book? Maybe Messiah is being split into two and will be part 3 and 4.

As others have said, Messiah is the shortest one. It's very dense with political intrigue, as it begins 12 years after Dune, and we see how Paul's rulership of the Imperium has solidified. Arrakeen has become not only the capital of the Empire, but the centre of the religion of Mu'ad-Dib. Alia is basically the high priestess, and some of the Fedaykin are now priests instead of fighters. The whole jihad in which the Fremen/Atreides forces subjugated the Empire is glossed over in conversation, mentioning a few key events and Paul relates how many planets he's conquered, how many people have died, etc.

Dune Messiah is basically the story of a plot hatched among the Bene Gesserit, the Guild, the Tleilaxu, and Princess Irulan (she's never referred to as Empress Irulan, as she should be, given that she's the wife of the current emperor).

Irulan's part in all this is the most interesting, in my opinion. As far as the Bene Gesserit are concerned, she's failed at her assignment - to seduce Paul, get pregnant, and birth a Corrino heir to take the throne. They don't want Chani to be the mother of the next emperor, so Irulan's orders are to make sure that doesn't happen.

Frank Herbert wrote parts of Messiah and Children at the same time that he was writing Dune, and I've seen an earlier draft of Dune Messiah in which he killed Irulan off, as collateral damage when the plot against the Atreides is foiled.

Irulan isn't very likeable in this novel, but when the TV miniseries were done in 2000 and 2003, Julie Cox knocked it out of the park with her portrayal of this character. She completely changed my mind about Irulan, and I'm very glad that FH changed his mind and let her survive.

As for Alia, she's about 16-17 years old in Dune Messiah. I can't think WTF Villeneuve has going on in his head about how he's written Jessica and Alia. It's absolutely beyond ridiculous.
 
Never read the book. Is it big story like the first book? Maybe Messiah is being split into two and will be part 3 and 4.
As noted above, Dune Messiah is the shortest Dune novel in the series, definitely the shortest of Frank Herbert's novels, probably shorter than any of Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's as well. The 2003 Children of Dune TV miniseries consisted of three ninety minute parts, with Part 1 being an adaptation of Messiah and Parts 2 and 3 adapting the Children of Dune novel. At ninety minutes, Part 1 of CoD covered all the relevant plot points of Messiah and even embellished on a few things not in the novel. A (presumably) three hour movie should have no problem translating Dune Messiah to the screen in one movie.
 
Last edited:
Of course FH didn't have the issues Villeneuve created. FH had Alia be born and grow up so she's an actual child at the end of Dune and she actually does kill the Baron. Over the next 12 years she helps Paul put his government together, and both she and Paul make it quite clear that Irulan's job is to be menial within the government and the loyal Corrino wife whose connection to Shaddam made this whole takeover entirely legitimate and a good thing for the empire.

By this point, since Villeneuve has made it clear that he is NOT being "faithful to the book", I have to wonder what he's going to do about Jessica. She's scampered back to Caladan, completely abandoning Alia (who was only 4 years old at the end of Dune). She left this child to be raised by her brother (who was busy conquering the Known Universe) and her Fremen nanny (Harah). It's gotten to the point where quite a few people, at least in the YT comments, are not impressed with Jessica's parenting skills. She's too much Bene Gesserit to be comfortable being around a Pre-Born daughter, so at the first opportunity, she leaves her behind.

Alia might have been literally born a Reverend Mother and have thousands of years of lifetimes crammed into her memories and have adult consciousness, but she's still a child with little or no life experience of her own. Instead of helping her, Jessica abandons her.

The miniseries addressed the fallout of this very well. I wonder if Villeneuve will give it a passing thought and spend half the movie on Chani, Fremen Warrior Princess who mouthed off and mocked her own uncle and Naib and then flounced, clearly showing that she did not have the maturity and understanding it would take to accept that although Paul would have to do many distasteful things in the name of political necessity (including marrying Irulan), it was still Chani who was the most important person to him.
 
i dident liked the changes in the new movies. reduction of characters arc. deleting entire character backstory and personality. tophir hawat not in the second movie where he should have been a key character in the arena scene, dr yuhe character reduced to almost nothing. liet kynes. also beraly had screen time. i dont like the idea that all the harkonens are bald and that the so called reason for this is just pollution. with all those changes i doubt that dune messiah will be any good because it would be changed drastically as well.
 
As for Alia, she's about 16-17 years old in Dune Messiah. I can't think WTF Villeneuve has going on in his head about how he's written Jessica and Alia. It's absolutely beyond ridiculous.

Well, beautiful as she is, Anya Taylor-Joy can't pass for 17 anymore and definitely not 12, so they're either going to have to speed up Alia's aging or CGI a few years off her for this movie.
 
Well, beautiful as she is, Anya Taylor-Joy can't pass for 17 anymore and definitely not 12, so they're either going to have to speed up Alia's aging or CGI a few years off her for this movie.

Alia doesn't have to be shown at age 12. She's 4 at the end of Dune, and Dune Messiah starts 12 years later, making Alia 16. The events of Messiah take approximately a year, give or take a couple of months (depending on how long between the beginning and when Chani finally gets pregnant; she doesn't have a normal pregnancy so it's less than the usual number of months).

So I would guesstimate Alia to be about 17 at the end of Dune Messiah. At that point she's the Regent for the twins (Chani's dead and Paul has gone off to the desert to die, and nobody expects him to return).

Children of Dune begins 9 years after the end of Dune Messiah. If they're still making these movies at that point, I would completely understand if they age the twins by several years, as the miniseries did. Leto II and Ghanima are characters too complex for child actors to handle convincingly, plus there's a scene with Leto and a Fremen woman that would be inappropriate for a child actor to be in.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top