Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

[wayoung]

So, two and a half months after the project was announced and they still haven't started writing it. Maybe in the next few weeks?

http://collider.com/denis-villeneuve-arrival-blade-runner-2049-dune-interview/

 

[Reverend]

So, two and a half months after the project was announced and they still haven't started writing it. Maybe in the next few weeks?

http://collider.com/denis-villeneuve-arrival-blade-runner-2049-dune-interview/

I wouldn't hold my breath. Just being a Dune project gives it about an 80% chance of ending up in development hell right from the off.

 

[wayoung]

The writing is what killed the last two productions. Nobody could crack the story. This one has the advantage of being split over s film and a series but, yeah, I'm not very confident it will ever be made.

 

[Reverend]

The writing is what killed the last two productions. Nobody could crack the story. This one has the advantage of being split over s film and a series but, yeah, I'm not very confident it will ever be made.

If I'm honest, I think they'll be better off going the 'Game of Thrones' route and just making it a TV show. Mind you I also think that show should break the first book into three seasons, so I may be in the minority there.

 

[JD]

Yeah, it definitely would work better as a TV show, and with the stuff they can do on TV now, I don't see any of the more fantastic stuff in it being an issue.

 

[FPAlpha]

Well it's not that fantastic apart from the Worms and a little bit of Sci Fi general things like Starships, Equipment and such (maybe showing a mutated Navigator would also be in the cards).

If made as a TV show GoT style it could have a good mix of action and large scale political drama just like GoT.. all it need is lightning in a bottle again to have 2 producers who live and breate the material and would do it justice and a TV network who is willing to take take the financial risk to fund at least one full season (GoT also started out at a slightly above average budget but when it became this massive hit HBO quickly openend the wallet).

 

[Marc]

Well it's not that fantastic apart from the Worms and a little bit of Sci Fi general things like Starships, Equipment and such (maybe showing a mutated Navigator would also be in the cards).

If made as a TV show GoT style it could have a good mix of action and large scale political drama just like GoT.. all it need is lightning in a bottle again to have 2 producers who live and breate the material and would do it justice and a TV network who is willing to take take the financial risk to fund at least one full season (GoT also started out at a slightly above average budget but when it became this massive hit HBO quickly openend the wallet).

Only draw back is that there's not quite as much material in the Dune books to maintain things for a long term tv series (GoT is what season 6 now?)

 

[fireproof78]

Well it's not that fantastic apart from the Worms and a little bit of Sci Fi general things like Starships, Equipment and such (maybe showing a mutated Navigator would also be in the cards).

If made as a TV show GoT style it could have a good mix of action and large scale political drama just like GoT.. all it need is lightning in a bottle again to have 2 producers who live and breate the material and would do it justice and a TV network who is willing to take take the financial risk to fund at least one full season (GoT also started out at a slightly above average budget but when it became this massive hit HBO quickly openend the wallet).

This would be my approach as well. The film aspect is great and all, but I think that GoT showed that longer term fantasy world building can work if approached correctly. As much as Brian Herbert is persona non grata among some, I wouldn't mind having him as a consultant of some kind in to the world building. Frank Herbert certainly produced a lot of notes and ideas in the 30 plus years of developing his concept that would eventually become "Dune."

I don't think story is as much the problem as so many think, as it is just the sheer thickness of it. You have Paul going from heir apparent and playing politics with his dad to the savior of the Fremen, to leader of a house in exile, to messianic figure to emperor. All the while, you have the "wheels within wheels" of constant conspiracy, long history, plus fancy tech and new worlds, and you compress that in to two hours? Challenging, at best.

 

[Hound of UIster]

This would be my approach as well. The film aspect is great and all, but I think that GoT showed that longer term fantasy world building can work if approached correctly. As much as Brian Herbert is persona non grata among some, I wouldn't mind having him as a consultant of some kind in to the world building. Frank Herbert certainly produced a lot of notes and ideas in the 30 plus years of developing his concept that would eventually become "Dune."

The problem is the alleged notes that Brian Herbert has claimed as the source material for his sequels is almost certainly fictitious or at least nowhere near as indepth as he would have us believe. The fact that his two Dune sequels contradict written elements in Frank Herbert's published work and that Brian Herbert used his two personal OCs is more indicative of the fact that a) he does't know what direction his father was ultimately going in with the Enemy of Many Face and b) really doesn't know much at all about the Post-Leto II Universe fleshed out in Heretics/Chapterhouse.

If he did have anything at all, I suspect it mostly covers the era in the first Dune novel. There was a Dune RPG sourcebook that was published that claimed to have seen these notes and I recall some of the details in there matching things found in the House Atreides book (as well as the non-canonical Dune Encyclopedia)

 

[wayoung]

Yeah, those "in depth outlines and notes" are a long running joke. How they morphed from a single safety deposit both to an attic full of boxes to an attic and a garage full, with 20 or so fully realized outlines for Dune novels....

McNelly refuted that pretty hard as well. He claimed he had the Butlerian Jihad outline and first four chapters since he was writing it with Frank, and what he had is nothing at all like what B&K put out. Purposely different, most likely, to avoid having to pay McNelly anything.

 

[Reverend]

Well it's not that fantastic apart from the Worms and a little bit of Sci Fi general things like Starships, Equipment and such (maybe showing a mutated Navigator would also be in the cards).

The main challenges are going to be location filming in a place that you can buy as Arrakis, but won't actually kill the cast and crew or cost a small fortune to get out to and the fact that *everything* is going to have to be custom made. Every prop, every set, every costume. That is challenging from a budgetary, logistical and production design standpoint. The sand worms are really the least of it.

Oh and I'd hold off on showing an actual navigator because 1) budget, and 2) they don't actually appear in the first book and they're all the more mysterious for it. Plus there's supposed to be a big reveal at the end when a Guild Steersman's contact lens gets knocked off.

Only draw back is that there's not quite as much material in the Dune books to maintain things for a long term tv series (GoT is what season 6 now?)

I've gone into more detail elsewhere with this, but the basic idea is that you split 'Dune' into three 8-10 episode seasons in line with the three "books" present in the novel ('Dune', 'Muad‘Dib' & 'The Prophet'.) 'Dune Messiah' gives you another season's worth and 'Children of Dune' another two. That's six so far and if by some miracle you get that far and think the show can survive with only one original cast member sticking around then you basically skip 'God Emperor' and go straight into 'Heretics' & 'Chapterhouse' for one season apiece, though maybe 13 episodes instead of 8 or 10. Both of which you can flesh out by weaving in elements of GEoD as part of the backstory.
The tricky part is how to end it. Hopefully by this point (season 8!) the ratings will have dropped off enough that they can comfortably end it the way Herbert did, though if the money people insist on more then I just hope they go their own way & ignore the tedious mess that BH & KJA produced.

 

[fireproof78]

The problem is the alleged notes that Brian Herbert has claimed as the source material for his sequels is almost certainly fictitious or at least nowhere near as indepth as he would have us believe. The fact that his two Dune sequels contradict written elements in Frank Herbert's published work and that Brian Herbert used his two personal OCs is more indicative of the fact that a) he does't know what direction his father was ultimately going in with the Enemy of Many Face and b) really doesn't know much at all about the Post-Leto II Universe fleshed out in Heretics/Chapterhouse.

If he did have anything at all, I suspect it mostly covers the era in the first Dune novel. There was a Dune RPG sourcebook that was published that claimed to have seen these notes and I recall some of the details in there matching things found in the House Atreides book (as well as the non-canonical Dune Encyclopedia)

Yes, that is problematic, but the Dune Encyclopedia is enough to have a basis for world building. In addition, I would also look at what inspired Frank Herbert to begin with as he developed his "ecology story."

It's not a matter of having a fully fleshed out material, but laying the foundation to visualize the world. Which, the encyclopedia, Herbert's influences, and the novels themselves provide more than enough elements to build from, and expand upon with some more contemporary means. Besides, we are looking at developing the first Dune novel so having some notes is a benefit, I would think.

 

[JD]

The main challenges are going to be location filming in a place that you can buy as Arrakis, but won't actually kill the cast and crew or cost a small fortune to get out to and the fact that *everything* is going to have to be custom made. Every prop, every set, every costume. That is challenging from a budgetary, logistical and production design standpoint. The sand worms are really the least of it.

Plenty of SFF shows have had to create everything in their worlds. I don't think it would be that hard to just take some modern stuff and tweak it to make it more alien. As for the location, I'm pretty sure they could find a big open desert somewhere to film, and if they really wanted there's always CGI.

 

[Reverend]

Plenty of SFF shows have had to create everything in their worlds. I don't think it would be that hard to just take some modern stuff and tweak it to make it more alien. As for the location, I'm pretty sure they could find a big open desert somewhere to film, and if they really wanted there's always CGI.

I never said any of these things were impossible. I'm just pointing out that these are hurdles and complications to overcome.
Ones that cost money. Which means a higher budget. Which means it'll be that much harder to convince studios that are typically risk averse to bankroll the thing to begin with,

And no, it's not as simple as "get some real stuff and glue things on it to make it look alien." At least not if you want to do it right and not have it look cheep and nasty.
It takes a team of production designers and concept artist to come up with a coherent aesthetic, from the sets, to the costumes to the props. Then they have to clearly delineate within those parameters so the audience can tell at a glace which of the main groups they're looking at and where they are in the world. Then they have to fabricate all of it for everyone in frame.
Unlike the likes of GoT, Black Sails or the Marvel Netflix shows they can't just rent a bunch of pre-existing costumes or props, (there are literally warehouses full of period costumes, swords, cloaks flintlocks, and vintage cars out there for just this purpose) nor can they use any existing location interiors without significant redressing. Every extra will need an entirely custom costume, not just the main cast. That's *thousands* of units times hundreds of thousands of work hours. It's far from simple.

Again, not impossible, just another layer of complication and cost. A Dune production done on the cheep will look cheep. There are no real corners to cut. The more you have to spend the harder it's going to be to convince the money people it'll return profit and given Dune's track record of less than successful adaptions and next to zero revenue in merchandise sales, that's going to be a *very* hard sell.

So yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this implodes or just drifts into obscurity before the year's end.

 

[JD]

I've seen shows enough recent genre shows do some really impressive stuff, so I tend not to rule anything out any more.
And while you might need to do more than just glue some stuff on to make things look more alien, you can still use the modern stuff as the basis to play around with. I don't really see the designs for something like Dune being that extreme. I have a feeling buildings are still going to look like buildings, guns will still have the same basic designs as modern guns, and swords will still look like swords.

 

[The Wormhole]

Only draw back is that there's not quite as much material in the Dune books to maintain things for a long term tv series (GoT is what season 6 now?)

I don't know, even if they just limit the show to just Frank Herbert's material, there's six novels right there. The only problem I see is that once they get past Children of Dune they'll pretty much have to completely do the cast over for God Emperor, and again for Heretics. Well, Duncan Idaho of course will stay for the whole series, of course.

 

[Reverend]

I don't know, even if they just limit the show to just Frank Herbert's material, there's six novels right there. The only problem I see is that once they get past Children of Dune they'll pretty much have to completely do the cast over for God Emperor, and again for Heretics. Well, Duncan Idaho of course will stay for the whole series, of course.

This is part of the reason why I would suggest skipping over GEoD. It only has two returning characters, one of them is cosplaying as Jabba the Hutt the whole time and the plot itself is paper thin. Even if the cast weren't an issue, you'd have a job getting a whole season's worth of drama out of that.

Heratics & Chapterhouse are much stronger in that regard with Darwi Odrade and Miles Teg being pretty strong leads. It may even be an idea to have the same actor who played Leto I to come back and play the older Miles. Indeed, he'd likely be to *only* returning cast member at this point as the latest Duncan ghola is still very young. It'd be later when Duncan is older and reversing roles with the young Teg ghola that the original Duncan actor could come back.

Now that I think about it, it might be possible to pull this trick with Odrade too by having her played by whomever played either Jessica or Chani, maybe even Irulan or grown up Alia. Plus if there are any flashbacks to Moneo & Siona they could similarly use actors who played their ancestors aswell. Might be a neat way of holding onto some familiar faces in the long run.
They'd probably need to do something different with them to avoid confusion though, like say drastically different hair or some subtle make-up work or something.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I don't know, even if they just limit the show to just Frank Herbert's material, there's six novels right there. The only problem I see is that once they get past Children of Dune they'll pretty much have to completely do the cast over for God Emperor, and again for Heretics. Well, Duncan Idaho of course will stay for the whole series, of course.

The problem is the story in Heretics & Chapterhouse was never concluded. God Emperor of Dune in many ways is a better conclusion compared to the uncertainty and the revelation of a greater threat at the end of Chapterhouse of Dune.

 

[wayoung]

McNelly's estate has the rights to the DE (along with the Butlerian Jihad novel he and Frank were writing before Frank's death) further complicated by the fact that it is a compilation by numerous writers who may maintain additional rights and be owed additional royalties should a film version be made. They won't be included in any film deal with The Herbert Partnership. To include that material they'd have to buy those rights/pay those royalties too.

In addition, I doubt The Herbert Partnership would ever allow it since most of the DE directly contradicts the official continuations written by Brian and Kevin and they won't be promoting someone elses out of print book over their own.

 

[fireproof78]

I never said any of these things were impossible. I'm just pointing out that these are hurdles and complications to overcome.
Ones that cost money. Which means a higher budget. Which means it'll be that much harder to convince studios that are typically risk averse to bankroll the thing to begin with,

And no, it's not as simple as "get some real stuff and glue things on it to make it look alien." At least not if you want to do it right and not have it look cheep and nasty.
It takes a team of production designers and concept artist to come up with a coherent aesthetic, from the sets, to the costumes to the props. Then they have to clearly delineate within those parameters so the audience can tell at a glace which of the main groups they're looking at and where they are in the world. Then they have to fabricate all of it for everyone in frame.
Unlike the likes of GoT, Black Sails or the Marvel Netflix shows they can't just rent a bunch of pre-existing costumes or props, (there are literally warehouses full of period costumes, swords, cloaks flintlocks, and vintage cars out there for just this purpose) nor can they use any existing location interiors without significant redressing. Every extra will need an entirely custom costume, not just the main cast. That's *thousands* of units times hundreds of thousands of work hours. It's far from simple.

Again, not impossible, just another layer of complication and cost. A Dune production done on the cheep will look cheep. There are no real corners to cut. The more you have to spend the harder it's going to be to convince the money people it'll return profit and given Dune's track record of less than successful adaptions and next to zero revenue in merchandise sales, that's going to be a *very* hard sell.

So yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this implodes or just drifts into obscurity before the year's end.

If you ever watch the making of most large scale projects, they are always a hard sell. I don't think the Dune project is unique in that regard, other than the fact that it had two adaptations prior. But, that was a different time, and genre films are not considered as risky a venture as in the past, or niche either. The success of franchises such as LOTR, Game of Thrones, the Expanse and the like would be indication of that fact.

Designing Dune will be no different than any other adaptation. It will get some things right, some wrong, and will require a lot of investment. I think there will be some production companies who are willing to take the risk given the current adapation and genre film success.

I don't know, even if they just limit the show to just Frank Herbert's material, there's six novels right there. The only problem I see is that once they get past Children of Dune they'll pretty much have to completely do the cast over for God Emperor, and again for Heretics. Well, Duncan Idaho of course will stay for the whole series, of course.

Which will also lead to the paraody spin off film, Zombies of Dune.