Dumb Menagerie nitpick i just thought of.

[Bhodi Li]

Months might not be long enough to learna new system to communicate. I broke a couple windshields with my face and it took months for me to recover, andI'm gonna presume Pike had a little more damage than I did.

 

[johnnybear]

Sorry to hear that, Bhodi!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Look, just because the characters say on-screen what the relationship between the Original and New Timelines is, and just because the people making the new movies have said repeatedly exactly what the relationship between the Original and New Timelines is meant to be, what makes you think we have any idea what the relationship between the Original and New Timelines is or is meant to be?

Or why Spock recognized a younger Kirk that looked absolutely nothing like William Shatner or explained why a Kirk with no experience ended up commanding The Enterprise? This is a universe where anything can happen and anyone can be a Captain! Maybe it's a type of Shore Leave universe?
JB

 

[Bhodi Li]

Thanks. An experience that I hope no one here ever has to go through.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Or why Spock recognized a younger Kirk that looked absolutely nothing like William Shatner or explained why a Kirk with no experience ended up commanding The Enterprise? This is a universe where anything can happen and anyone can be a Captain! Maybe it's a type of Shore Leave universe?
JB

Spock recognized Kirk because Chris Pine is playing Jim Kirk and not playing William Shatner. Same character, different actors. You might as well ask if when Kirk runs across Saavik in STIII, he didn't wonder who this Vulcan was and what she did with Saavik.

 

[Timo]

The plot demanded that Pike's only method of communication was by blinking the light either once or twice. In reality, even back in 1967, a disabled person could have learned how to use that very same light to communicate in so many other ways, from a numbered word or letter chart to Morse code.

But back in 1967, the audiences might not have been particularly aware of how speech works. Mouthin' off is fairly irrelevant to the process - it's the brain that does the hard work. And half a century of televised medical drama has exposed modern audiences to the fact that one can lose the ability to use language as easily as one can use a limb. Neither loss means the "mind" of the victim would be diminished: only a specific ability would be lost, in this case that of putting together a string of words. No synthesizer nor a set of perfectly restored vocal organs could make heads of tails of Pike's as such lucid thoughts when his own brain had taken a hit in the Broca area - all that would be available from Pike's otherwise healthy brain via that all-important, non-bypassable filter would be general feelings of negativity or elation, for which a blinking light is as good a channel as any.

Basically, Pike's plight has grown in realism with the years, even if getting it right originally was just a lucky shot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Spock recognized Kirk because Chris Pine is playing Jim Kirk and not playing William Shatner. Same character, different actors. You might as well ask if when Kirk runs across Saavik in STIII, he didn't wounder who this Vulcan was and what she did with Saavik.

I know that I'm just having a bit of fun that's all! I just thought I'd point out that Pine bears absolutely no resemblance to the Shat at all! Has anyone ever seen that pic where someone has melded both Pine and Shatner's faces together? It looks quite good and I can see a resemblance in there!
JB

 

[CrazyMatt]

That's the problem of nuTrek.

we aren't sure if its the same timeline as we know. Or if its a modified version of the TOS mirror universe. Or an entirely separate mirror verse.

the nexus was an easy thing to understand. Sensors showed a massive energy ribbon that could wipe out whole ships.
So when a thing string of it hits a star ship , and destroys a section of hull and the guy standing in said section of hull. LOGIC dictates... the guy and missing section of hull are um,,,,, GONE FOR GOOD

NuTrek? Sounds like new Coke. Too sweet and leaves a bad aftertaste.

 

[T'Girl]

....with no body present, I'm supposed to believe Spock didn't explore every avenue to find Kirk? With no body he would try and find out exactly what the Nexus is, and that would lead to him finding out.

A theory I like is that James Kirk's friends did in fact go after and rescue Kirk from the Nexus, leaving behind his "echo." Kirk then lives out the rest of his natural life and by the time of TNG was dead.

This would explain Scotty's comment in Relics.

Guinan's echo couldn't help Picard battle Soren because "she was already there," and not that echos can't leave. But Kirk being dead outside the Nexus would allow his echo to leave the Nexus and assisting Picard.

Kirk's echo subsequently dies.

+

 

[ZapBrannigan]

But back in 1967, the audiences might not have been particularly aware of how speech works. Mouthin' off is fairly irrelevant to the process - it's the brain that does the hard work. And half a century of televised medical drama has exposed modern audiences to the fact that one can lose the ability to use language as easily as one can use a limb. Neither loss means the "mind" of the victim would be diminished: only a specific ability would be lost, in this case that of putting together a string of words. No synthesizer nor a set of perfectly restored vocal organs could make heads of tails of Pike's as such lucid thoughts when his own brain had taken a hit in the Broca area - all that would be available from Pike's otherwise healthy brain via that all-important, non-bypassable filter would be general feelings of negativity or elation, for which a blinking light is as good a channel as any.

Basically, Pike's plight has grown in realism with the years, even if getting it right originally was just a lucky shot.

Timo Saloniemi

This thread is not the first time Timo has given me Fridge Horror.

 

[Timo]

...And we haven't even started to discuss the general plot of Pike ending up in a menagerie after all.

Thanks for giving a name to the trope! Last night was Planet of the Apes night for me. I remember every single scene and most of the dialogue from my first viewing of the 1968 movie, all those decades ago, but boy if it wasn't a lot scarier than I had realized! I guess some fridges are located farther off the set than others...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drone]

But back in 1967, the audiences might not have been particularly aware of how speech works. Mouthin' off is fairly irrelevant to the process - it's the brain that does the hard work. And half a century of televised medical drama has exposed modern audiences to the fact that one can lose the ability to use language as easily as one can use a limb. Neither loss means the "mind" of the victim would be diminished: only a specific ability would be lost, in this case that of putting together a string of words. No synthesizer nor a set of perfectly restored vocal organs could make heads of tails of Pike's as such lucid thoughts when his own brain had taken a hit in the Broca area - all that would be available from Pike's otherwise healthy brain via that all-important, non-bypassable filter would be general feelings of negativity or elation, for which a blinking light is as good a channel as any.

Basically, Pike's plight has grown in realism with the years, even if getting it right originally was just a lucky shot.

Timo Saloniemi

So, you're saying that in the real world, the knowledge is currently present that would tell, with great certainty, which part of the brain, exposure to delta radiation would be most likely to impair or irreparably disable? Interesting and pretty advanced research, I'll give you that. Well, here's a somewhat diverting tidbit, albeit from a source that one can question (Wikipedia), at times anyway. However, in this instance, I think I have read similarly oriented independent source material (and in fact a narrative from someone so effected and those close to him), so at the least, it caught my eye.


Speaking without Broca's area
Damage to Broca's area is commonly associated with telegraphic like speech made up of content vocabulary. For example, a person with Broca's aphasia may say something like, "Drive, store. Mom." meaning to say, "My mom drove me to the store today". Therefore, the content of the information is correct, but the grammar and fluidity of the sentence is missing.[15]

The essential role of the Broca's area in speech production has been questioned since it can be destroyed while leaving language nearly intact. In one case of a computer engineer, a slow-growing glioma tumor was removed. The tumor and the surgery destroyed the left inferior and middle frontal gyrus, the head of the caudate nucleus, the anterior limb of the internal capsule, and the anterior insula. However, there were minimal language problems three months after removal and the individual returned to his professional work. These minor problems include the inability to create syntactically complex sentences including more than two subjects, multiple causal conjunctions, or reported speech. These were explained by researchers as due to working memory problems. They also attributed his lack of problems to extensive compensatory mechanisms enabled by neural plasticity in the nearby cerebral cortex and a shift of some functions to the homologous area in the right hemisphere.[4]

 

[johnnybear]

...And we haven't even started to discuss the general plot of Pike ending up in a menagerie after all.

Thanks for giving a name to the trope! Last night was Planet of the Apes night for me. I remember every single scene and most of the dialogue from my first viewing of the 1968 movie, all those decades ago, but boy if it wasn't a lot scarier than I had realized! I guess some fridges are located farther off the set than others...

Timo Saloniemi

The best film ever made is my opinion on POTA 1968! I first saw that film back in 74 during the first showing of the tv series and it totally blew me away! How brutal the apes were and how desperate Taylor's predicament was! It made the tv show seem quite tame to be honest!
JB

 

[Timo]

So, you're saying that in the real world, the knowledge is currently present that would tell, with great certainty, which part of the brain, exposure to delta radiation would be most likely to impair or irreparably disable?

The above reference suggests "great certainty" is too much promised - yet that's welcome from our POV, as otherwise we might surmise 23rd century medicine to have made great progress there, making Pike's ailment curable...

Significantly, modern medicine has documented such a broad spectrum of language-related trauma, or trauma-related language issues, and modern entertainment media have then milked that material for its full tear-jerking value, that the inability to put thoughts into words is among the more mundane phenomena in the collective consciousness nowadays. There are patients who lose the ability to speak their native tongue but retain an acquired tongue, or the ability to sing, or a skill to learn sign language when spoken ones are gone, or even vice versa.

While modern medicine might struggle to nail down the specific cubic centimeter in each individual patient's Broca or Wernicke where trauma would specifically result in the loss of all language, the precedent at least is amply there for Pike's predicament (an extreme case of expressive aphasia) being plausible.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hippocrates Noah]

They're just not really that good of friends. What was Spock supposed to do? Steal the Enterprise B and head off to try and save Kirk's life? Kirk certainly wouldn't do anything that crazy for Spock....

Joking aside, I think it's worth noting that Spock went through all of that trouble for Pike to help him get to a place where he could live a life of illusion. Kirk was already existing in such a place. Maybe Spock did look into it but discovered the nature of the Nexus and just decided to let him stay there. If he did know then he'd know that Kirk was living a presumably happy and eternal life. Or maybe Generations should have been a better movie. As somebody said, it's more of a Generations nitpick than a Menagerie one. I don't consider it a WoK plothole that Spock gave his life for Kirk once already but in Generations we don't see him lift a finger to search for his old friend. We don't know what Spock did in regards to investigating Kirk's death on account of Nimoy declining to be in the film.

 

[johnnybear]

Maybe Spock returned to Omicron Ceti III and got blasted by them thorns once again? He heard about Kirk's plight and subsequent death and radioed back, "Jim will be alright and don't bother me while I'm sitting by the river!" "Spock out!"
JB

 

[Kor]

Pike was so severely limited by his injuries that the only way to live a joyful life was in a world of illusion.

Kirk did not have such limitations in GEN, so he still could have lived a full life outside of the nexus.

Kor

 

[Hippocrates Noah]

Pike was so severely limited by his injuries that the only way to live a joyful life was in a world of illusion.

Kirk did not have such limitations in GEN, so he still could have lived a full life outside of the nexus.

Kor

True, but I don't think Kirk was that happy in his life of retirement, and he was aging. To the logical Spock it could have seemed like the better choice, eternal life in the Nexus with nothing to trouble him or bring him back out into his world of probable crankiness and eventual death. Had there not been an urgent mission that required his help he may have been just fine staying in the Nexus. This is all a ton of speculation, I was just throwing something out there for a possible in-universe explanation. We all know the real world explanation, Nimoy didn't like the script. And while Generations has its moments, I don't blame him.