Dukat going to the top?

[Nerys Ghemor]

They should've at least put the evidence out there and given the Bajorans a chance to decide whether they wanted Federation intervention. And despite your cute little attempt to tie this to the Iraq War to get everyone to treat the topic as untouchable, the fact is that this is the equivalent of asking the Iraqis BEFORE Saddam ever consolidated his hold on them, presenting evidence of what he was starting to do, and asking them if they really wanted that. The fact that the Federation would be bothering to ASK does indeed make all the difference; they wouldn't simply be barging in uninvited. If they got told point-blank, "No, we like our deal with the Cardassians," then I could understand an argument that the Federation couldn't intervene, even if I despised it. But there wasn't even the attempt to ask.

And since there were significant, corrupt elements, they may well have wanted to raise the idea to the non-corrupt ones about a public expose. "Asking the Bajoran populace" might not be such a bad idea after all.

And even if the Federation assets got there almost too late, that data should've IMMEDIATELY been presented to the Bajorans as something to consider when making that decision. It's not like it would take the Pony Express to get it to them; these people have technology.

 

[Sci]

They should've at least put the evidence out there and given the Bajorans a chance to decide whether they wanted Federation intervention.

The evidence was already out there. Cardassian tanks were in the streets. It's not like it took anyone a long time to figure out where they'd been stored.

And how, exactly, would the Federation "give the Bajorans a chance" to decide whether they wanted intervention? It's not like Federation elections officials could just waltz up the streets of Ashalla and set up a planetary referendum. There's the not-inconsiderable problem of the Cardassian military being there to attack any Federation forces that try to "ask the Bajorans" what they want before they even ask.

And even if the Federation assets got there almost too late, that data should've IMMEDIATELY been presented to the Bajorans as something to consider when making that decision.

So they would, what? Have the undercover Federation agents go to the Bajoran media... and then promptly get captured or killed once the now exposed Cardassians move their tanks into the streets maybe six hours earlier than planned?

The Cardassians had already won.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

I think it's also worth throwing this in at this stage: The Federation can't fix everything. They have their own problems to worry about too, and while that sounds selfish, if they tried to mend every problem in the galaxy, liberate every oppressed planet, then they'd end up spread pretty thin and at war with a lot of people.

Eh, the Feds never had a real problem with the species subjugated by the Klingons and Romulans. Would be kind of strange they cared so much about the Bajorans while ignoring those other ones.

They didn't even know the Bajorans very well at the time, so even more reason for that to be true.

 

[Sci]

^^ I think it's completely accurate to note that the Federation simply doesn't have the resources to liberate every oppressed planet in the Alpha Quadrant. If it tried, it would probably fail, and end up embroiling itself in numerous quagmire wars throughout local space. It would be a disaster for Federation security and would greatly weaken the U.F.P. militarily, leaving the Federation and its worlds open to conquest and oppression.

And, frankly, I reject the notion that the Federation is responsible for other people's choices.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

Despite being a fan of the Bajorans, I'm suddenly hit with a need to wonder why the Federation wanted Bajor to join so urgently that they'd make that Sisko's mission, even before realising the Wormhole was there. Was it down to their strategic location near Cardassian space, the Federation potentially feeling bad about what had happened to them, or just that they quite liked the idea of having another richly developed culture joining their ranks?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Which just goes to prove what I've believed all along--the Federation is NOT about principles, not by a long shot. All of their so-called "principles," to include the Prime Directive, are simply used to disguise political expediency and isolationism from being obvious as what it is. They are no different from the Cardassian Union, except more hypocritical.

As to the Cardassian Union, they were weak, pre-Occupation. Their strength to fight the Federation during the Federation-Cardassian Wars came on the backs of the Bajoran people, and the resources of their world. And the Federation just let them HAVE that. Pretty disgusting. Frankly, if they'd provoked the Cardassians into tipping their hands, and gave the non-corrupt elements a chance to come out in the open, and the Federation had actually fought against the Cardassians before they attained the strength they later had, it could've been done quite decisively.

 

[Sci]

Which just goes to prove what I've believed all along--the Federation is NOT about principles, not by a long shot. All of their so-called "principles," to include the Prime Directive, are simply used to disguise political expediency and isolationism from being obvious as what it is. They are no different from the Cardassian Union, except more hypocritical.

Let me get this straight: The fact that the Federation did not go to war to liberate a culture that never asked for liberation from another culture that they invited to their own world and which had not attacked the Federation, when the Federation would not even have been able to go to war if it were to make that a consistent policy throughout the galaxy -- this means that they have no principles? This means that they're morally equivalent to active imperialists?

Tell me, if the police are called to a house on a domestic violence call, but the woman refuses to press charges against the abuser, does that make the police as immoral as the apparent perpetrator? Are you really going to claim that anybody who doesn't use force to impose their morality upon the world is as bad as aggressors?

I'm terribly sorry if it upsets you, but in life, sometimes you have to accept that you do not have the resources to solve every problem.

And who is the Federation to decide who is or is not a "corrupt" element of Bajoran society? By what right would the Federation decide which Bajorans are "legitimate" and have a right to make decisions for Bajor and which aren't? How would that not be imperialistic of the Federation?

As to the Cardassian Union, they were weak, pre-Occupation.

A common refrain throughout history from cultures about to find themselves embroiled in long wars. Both sides in the U.S. Civil War thought it would be over in a couple of weeks. The Central and Allied powers in World War I were both convinced they'd defeat the other very quickly. The Bush Administration was convinced that major combat operations would be over in Iraq by the time the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln came back to port.

They were all wrong.

I would hope that the Federation has outgrown the rather primitive warmonger's habit of reassuring others that war is okay because the other side is weak.

Their strength to fight the Federation during the Federation-Cardassian Wars came on the backs of the Bajoran people, and the resources of their world.

You wanna tell that to the families of Federation officers asking why their sons and daughters died in the name of "liberating" a world that never asked to be liberated? You gonna sit there and claim that that's somehow "just?"

And the Federation just let them HAVE that.

No, the Federation let Bajor and Cardassia make their own decisions amongst themselves.

Frankly, if they'd provoked the Cardassians into tipping their hands,

Then the tanks would have been in the streets a few hours earlier.

and gave the non-corrupt elements a chance to come out in the open,

Once again, who is the Federation to decide which elements of Bajoran society are or are not "corrupt?" On what basis do they make this determination? How, exactly, do two Starfleet officers get to walk into the capital of an alien world and say, "Well, you're not legitimately patriotic for your world, but you are, so you don't get to make decisions for your world (even though you're the legitimately elected First Minister), but they do?"

What would that mean, "giving non-corrupt elements a chance to come out in the open?"

and the Federation had actually fought against the Cardassians before they attained the strength they later had,

So it's the Federation's obligation to start a war against a foreign culture that had not attacked them or threatened them in any way, in order to "liberate" a world that never asked for liberation? Whose legitimate government wanted the Cardassians there?

And let's bear in mind that that's exactly what you're asking for: For the Federation to attack a state that had not attacked it. There are more than a few people out there who would call that a war of aggression on the Federation's part.

I know you got upset when I brought up Iraq, but it's completely pertinent. Iraq should be a strong lesson to us that you cannot use force to impose freedom on other cultures -- those cultures have to develop a liberal political culture themselves, without foreign interference. You can't spread freedom at the end of a gun.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'm just here to ask one question:

Sci...you say the Cardassians had not attacked the Federation.

I beg to differ. I refer you to the Federation-Cardassian "border wars", specifically, the Setlik III massacre.

Surely, when fighting an ememy, it would be prudent to aid those who are fighting this enemy, just as you are.

So...during the wars, the Federation had a golden opportunity to aid and abet the Bajoran resistance movement--Prime Directive or not. They had a common enemy during that time, and thus it was logical for them to join forces and deal with this mutual threat.

And yet...they didn't.

Are you suggesting then...that it was best that it was that way?

 

[Sci]

I'm just here to ask one question:

Sci...you say the Cardassians had not attacked the Federation.

I beg to differ. I refer you to the Federation-Cardassian "border wars", specifically, the Setlik III massacre.

We're talking about events as depicted in Terok Nor: Day of the Vipers, in which the Cardassian Central Command hides ground-based weaponry, tanks, and forces in Oralian Way religious enclaves established on Bajor before moving them into the population centers to seize de facto control of Bajor. This happens after the Cardassians assassinate the First Minister, blaming it on a terrorist group and thereby gaining the consent of the Chamber of Ministers -- supposedly in the name of establishing law and order, but in actuality beginning the Occupation. This all happens in 2328.

By contrast, the Setlik III Massacre has never been dated in a canonical entry or in a novel. However, we know that Miles O'Brien was aboard the U.S.S. Rutledge when it arrived at the Massacre, earning himself the title "Hero of Setlik III" because of his bravery. "Homefront" and "Whispers" on DS9 establish that O'Brien wasn't even born until, coincidently, 2328 -- meaning that the Setlik III Massacre had to happen, at the absolute earliest, circa 2348, twenty years after the beginning of the Occupation.

Meanwhile, the novel The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible makes it clear that the Federation and Cardassians have only recently begun to come into regular contact and that the border wars have not yet begun. The Terok Nor series is in continuity with Impossible, mind you, as they share characters and background information.

So, no, at that point, 2328, the Cardassians had not attacked the Federation. (Though that year was, according to Impossible, also the start of the Cardassian-Klingon conflict known as the Betreka Nebula Incident.) You're at least twenty years too early for that, Rush.

So...during the wars, the Federation had a golden opportunity to aid and abet the Bajoran resistance movement--Prime Directive or not. They had a common enemy during that time, and thus it was logical for them to join forces and deal with this mutual threat.

I don't disagree with this. So long as the Cardassian Union had launched a war of aggression against the Federation, I think that the idea of invading Bajor and taking it from the Cardassians becomes more acceptable. I don't think the Federation is obliged to do so, because I think the Federation's only obligation in response to a war of aggression is to secure its territory and citizenry, but I wouldn't consider it unjust, either.

What I am arguing is that the course of action the Federation took in response to the initial seizure of Bajor by the Cardassians -- neutrality -- is not immoral or unjust or otherwise a besmirchment of the Federation's good name.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

As to the Cardassian Union, they were weak, pre-Occupation. Their strength to fight the Federation during the Federation-Cardassian Wars came on the backs of the Bajoran people, and the resources of their world.

I'm not sure I agree with this point entirely. They were certainly stronger during the occupation era because Bajor wasn't the only world that they spread out to. The proof of this is that we're led to believe that there are a good many Nors spread throughout Cardassian space which were used to farm resources, either from planets or from asteroids, or whatever. The sources for this include one main canon reference that I can think of off the top of my head (The DS9 episode Empok Nor), and a few non-canon- a number of novels, and the CCG. I'm sure if anyone else can think of a source to back this up they'll throw it into the mix.

Therefore saying that the Cardassians' success came off the backs of the Bajoran people can't be wholly accurate, and even if it was, it came off the back of their planet, and not them, as they were hardly willingly aiding the Cardassians at this point (speaking generally, there was of course a minority that was).

One further thing I can think of that may back up the argument that the Federation couldn't have just steamed in and freed Bajor is that I'm pretty sure that the Empire's act of relinquishing the planet came as an act of tightening Cardassia's borders. This may well imply that Bajor was within the borders of Cardassian space prior to 2369, and we have no idea how easy it would have been for the Federation to access without being intercepted by a hefty enemy fleet.