DS9 Writers

[Okona]

Did the producers of DS9 hire new writers for season 5-7? The episodes suddenly got a lot better in 1996. So did Voyager around the same time (season 3). They even killed Jadzia... what an interesting twist in the plot! In the first few seasons everything was always resolved by the end of the episode, then from season 5 forward they had overarching story lines that spanned across several episodes. I like!

 

[MacLeod]

DSN started dropping hints in S1 more so during S2 run. re: The Dominion. In the case of DSN it started to get good around S3, and the later season where the culmination of the threads they had been building on.

 

[Okona]

It's the opposite of Lost. Lost managed to get me totally hooked the first two seasons then got worse and worse. By season 5 I had lost all interest and stopped watching. In the first few seasons of DS9 there were some episodes that were so painful to watch. The worst one was probably the one with Lwaxana Troi. But all that Bajoran history stuff got on my nerves too. Then later, huge battles, time travel, main character dies, special effects, kapoww

 

[Seven of Five]

Michael Piller was the head writer until mid-season three, when he stepped down on both DS9 and VOY to become just a Creative Consultant. He had been a big force on TNG, and was the reason TNG became so good in season three. Having him co-create the series was a very wise move.

Ira Steven Behr was on the staff from the start, and became the new head writer when Michael Piller stood down. He stayed with the show for the rest of its run. His Ferengi episodes were a bit strange, but his guiding hand ensured that the show continued to build on what came before. And he liked Iggy Pop too so there you go.

Robert Hewitt Wolfe was also on the show from the start, but left at the end of season five. He often wrote with Ira Steven Behr, and they often wrote amaing things together.

Peter Allan Fields was on staff for seasons one and two, before wanting to leave. He wrote The Inner Light on TNG, and Duet and Necessary Evil on DS9, amongst others.

At the start of season three, when TNG finished, Rene Echevarria moved over to DS9 till the end of its run. He was another very good writer, contributing Nor The Battle To The Strong, Children of Time and Chimera.

Ronald D. Moore also moved over to DS9 in season three, and was there to the end of the series. Ron had a hand in continuing the Klingon legacy he had helped to create on TNG, and also wrote stuff like In The Pale Moonlight.

Hans Beimler finally joined the staff during season four, despite having written some scripts for TNG and DS9 before. He was also there for the rest of the show's run. He would later become Ira Steven Behr's writing partner for the show after Robert Hewitt Wolfe left in season five.

David Weddle and Bradley Thompson joined the show in season six after Rober Hewitt Wolfe left in season five, and again were there to the end. They were pretty good, but were far and away much better on the Battlestar Galactica series Ronald D. Moore ran.

I'm not sure if that little infoburst is anything you wanted in particular, but I've read the DS9 companion that many times that these things just stick.

Jadzia being killed off was more of a necessity, as Terry Farrell (who played Dax) wanted to the leave the series.

DS9 is a brilliant series. The first season is a bit run of the mill, but there is a big step up in quality in seasons two and three. By season four, the show was more consistent, and then season five onwards just had the writers stirring the pot of everything that had come before. And it was glorious.

VOY season three is, for me, one of that series weakest seasons. I sort of understand where you're coming from though as the show went through its own changes during season three. More CGI was being used, and more action oriented endings were used, whereas the Kazon and Viidians were left behind.

Oh and I loved Lost. I loved it all the way through to the end. Seasons one and four were when I was the most gripped, but I lived on it for a while there.

 

[Okona]

Wow, that's a lot of knowledge! Pretty impressive. Yeah... the writers really started growing into their job in season 5. I don't like shows where every problem gets opened and closed in a single episode because it makes the open loops pretty predictable. If you know "well they will have to solve this problem in the next 8 minutes" you can usually guess how they will solve it. If they have 5 episodes to solve it, it's almost impossible to guess.

I think the dialogues got a lot better too. Witty, funny, dramatic. Early seasons were sometimes quite *yawn* corny.

 

[Okona]

Interesting, from imdb trivia:

The episode where Jadzia Dax dies. The producers were against such a radical plot development, especially with just one more season to go, but it was Terry Farrell's wish.

Not only was it not to their credit, they were actually against it! What a disappointment. Just keep everything trucking along nicely and boring as it always was? That's some really bad writing! I'm thinking of Breaking Bad here. Constantly shocking unexpected shit happening. Wow. That had me at the edge of my seat for all seasons so far.

Or maybe we've just become more desensitized to now-cliché plots that were still fresh 15 years ago... just like horror movies from the 40s arent scary anymore and a lot of laurel and hardy isn't funny anymore. I do seem to remember I was more fascinated by DS9 when it first came out. It's still good though. Last three seasons are really cool!

Either way, Hat tip to Farrell for inadvertently forcing the producers' hands and making them develop a more twisted plot!

 

[Navaros]

Berman hated serialization (read: using Trek to tell meaningful stories instead of pointless stories with no consequences) at the time of DS9, and wanted them to have almost none of of it, except for maybe a two-parter once in a while.

DS9 became amazing because Ira Behr fought against Berman's really bad dictates about that, and succeeded in overcoming them to some extent.

Also, after the first couple of years of DS9, Berman's hands were busy mucking up the VOY pie, which means he had less time to use to them to muck up the DS9 pie, to DS9's great benefit, and to VOY's great detriment.

DS9 would have been even better if Berman's hands were never mucking up the DS9 pie at all. Some people respond to that point by saying, "But Berman co-created DS9;" however, that isn't saying much, because DS9 was not good at the time of its creation. DS9 became good only when others like Behr developed the concept way beyond what Berman had originally co-created.

 

[Seven of Five]

I'm not sure if Berman actually hated serialisation, I just imagine that he would be trying his utmost to protect Gene's 'legacy.' All of Star Trek that had come before was never serialised. There wasn't even a lot of televison that was serialised at all until the 90s.

I don't think DS9 and Babylon 5 broke ground with their serialised tales, but they were the two notable cult shows in the 90s that worked well. I think 24 and Lost became trailblazers for serialisation on network TV, whilst the increased calibre of cable shows helped as well. Then gradually you get to modern day TV, where it's dotted everywhere.

Your comment about serialised shows telling more meaningful stories instead of pointless stories with no consequences is purely opinion. At the end of the day, it's the writing that matters. TNG wasn't very serialised, yet that series was popular (on the whole!) Heroes had an excellent first season, but then pissed it all away and was swiftly cancelled in year four, despite having ongoing storylines.

If the writing is there, people will give a damn. If not, then meh.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

From a business point of view, limiting the serialization of a show is a smart move. Unfortunate but true.

 

[Okona]

Interesting input now, Navaros. Of course a lot of this is a matter of opinion... I like serialization because in, say, 10 hours much more can happen than in 40 minutes.

Do you guys know who wrote the dialogue for Vic Fontaine? Was it James Darren himself? That's some genius level stuff too.

 

[Angel4576]

Indeed. Voyager's greatest contribution to Trek - cock-blocking Berman.

 

[JB2005]

From a business point of view, limiting the serialization of a show is a smart move. Unfortunate but true.

Not really, I don't think I've ever seen Allo'Allo in order, but the creators seemed to realise that the Beeb would show the series out of order and so just have the "As you may recall" at the beginning...

All it needs is a 30 second spot to say "previously on..." and the audience can follow!

 

[Relayer1]

From a business point of view, limiting the serialization of a show is a smart move. Unfortunate but true.

Not really, I don't think I've ever seen Allo'Allo in order, but the creators seemed to realise that the Beeb would show the series out of order and so just have the "As you may recall" at the beginning...

All it needs is a 30 second spot to say "previously on..." and the audience can follow!

I never thought I'd see 'Allo 'Allo referenced in a Trek thread - result !

 

[DS9forever]

Allo! Allo! was a great series.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Interesting input now, Navaros. Of course a lot of this is a matter of opinion... I like serialization because in, say, 10 hours much more can happen than in 40 minutes.

Well, a lot of scifi fans like serialization now...but in DS9's time, serialization was by no means the norm - especially in Trek.

In great respect, I think we can thank DS9 and B5 and their serialization for alot of what came later with BSG, and even LOST. Additionally, I think DS9 and B5 have aged a lot better than TNG and even VOY...and part of the reason for that is the serialization aspect. I think they fit in better with what contemporary scifi fans now expect.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The fate of serialized vs episodic structures is all bound up in the split in TV into two camps - mass market on broadcast and niche on cable. Generally speaking, mass market = broadcast = episodic and niche = cable = serialized (at least for dramas; comedies on cable are still often episodic).

Since genre shows are easier to maintain on cable for financial reasons, they've adopted serialization to a large extent. That's not really because genre stories "need" to be serialized, or are even better that way, but because cable demands it. (I personally like serialization better but mixed episodic/serialized shows can also be very good.)

Now that broadcast is struggling to find a way to compete with cable, there are more genre shows popping up that are largely serialized or a mixed format - Once Upon a Time, Terra Nova, Grimm, Alcatraz - because they're trying to appeal to viewers whose tastes have been shaped by cable, to win them back to the broadcast fold.

So all this has a lot more to do with business reasons than creative reasons. Robert Hewitt Wolfe's proposed "space cop" type series, with a Starfleetish crew patrolling a territory like the cop on a beat, could be almost wholly episodic and work just fine. I'll bet it would be popular with sci fi fans, too. But if it's on cable, it will have to have significant serialized elements, such as some overarching plot with a mystery or a recurring bad guy.

 

[tighr]

All it needs is a 30 second spot to say "previously on..." and the audience can follow!

Ron Moore said almost exactly that in an interview he gave after quitting Voyager. He said Voyager was the type of show that needed continuity even more than Deep Space 9, because the ship was actually supposed to be going somewhere instead of spinning around in circles.

The audience isn't retarded, all you need is a quick montage of previous information.

Of course, as You_Will_Fail alludes to, it doesn't help that serialized dramas on the major networks are getting cancelled left and right. Too many shows trying to jump on the LOST bandwagon.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

Additionally, I think DS9 and B5 have aged a lot better than TNG and even VOY...and part of the reason for that is the serialization aspect. I think they fit in better with what contemporary scifi fans now expect.

Totally agree with this. Thanks to Netflix, I've been doing a lot of rewatching and the TNG episodes seem so... flat. I don't remember feeling that way years ago, but I definiely do now. The "The End"-ness of each episode makes them seem kind of inconsequential.

For instance, I watched "The Offspring" with my husband last night, who is very much a casual Trek viewer (he refers to the Captains as Kirk, The Bald Guy, The Black Guy, The Woman and The Quantum Leap Guy). When it was over he asked "So what happens next? Does he try again, do they ever mention it or anything?" My response was "Nothing. It's never mentioned again."

 

[Rush Limborg]

Interesting input now, Navaros. Of course a lot of this is a matter of opinion... I like serialization because in, say, 10 hours much more can happen than in 40 minutes.

Well, a lot of scifi fans like serialization now...but in DS9's time, serialization was by no means the norm - especially in Trek.

In great respect, I think we can thank DS9 and B5 and their serialization for alot of what came later with BSG, and even LOST. Additionally, I think DS9 and B5 have aged a lot better than TNG and even VOY...and part of the reason for that is the serialization aspect. I think they fit in better with what contemporary scifi fans now expect.

Especially with the DVD sets.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Additionally, I think DS9 and B5 have aged a lot better than TNG and even VOY...and part of the reason for that is the serialization aspect. I think they fit in better with what contemporary scifi fans now expect.

Totally agree with this. Thanks to Netflix, I've been doing a lot of rewatching and the TNG episodes seem so... flat. I don't remember feeling that way years ago, but I definiely do now. The "The End"-ness of each episode makes them seem kind of inconsequential.

For instance, I watched "The Offspring" with my husband last night, who is very much a casual Trek viewer (he refers to the Captains as Kirk, The Bald Guy, The Black Guy, The Woman and The Quantum Leap Guy). When it was over he asked "So what happens next? Does he try again, do they ever mention it or anything?" My response was "Nothing. It's never mentioned again."

You know, reading this made me think of the old criticism often leveled at DS9: "It didn't go anywhere".

Well, we all know that was untrue in any case (especially later on), but DS9 certainly went further from a story growth/character growth standpoint than any of the other Trek shows.

The Enterprise may have traveled all over the universe...but the crew hardly moved. I suppose you have Data's 'find my humanity' storyline, and Worf's 'deal with my Klingon heritage' storyline (and even that was played out in large part on DS9) but the rest of them, for the most part, did not move emotionally from where they were on day one of the show. None of them ever really learned anything from their encounters with outsiders - mostly because 'our heroes' were portrayed as superior beings spreading the Federation Gospel throughout the universe to less 'evolved' races and groups. Not much room for personal growth when one is a perfectly evolved being from Day One of the show.

And when there is no personal growth, the show naturally falls rather flat to today's audiences, who expect more from their characters than smug speeches and kewl 'splosions.