DS9 Without Prophets and Pah Wraiths

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by SonOfMogh, Dec 30, 2008.

  1. psikeyhackr

    psikeyhackr Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Definitely!

    The religious dynamics in DS9 added a whole new dimension to Trek. Though I don't doubt that the humanist and atheists fanatics were totally turned off by it. The same thing goes for Babylon 5 and one reason I think Paramount swiped stuff form B5. But it gave us 2 good shows.

    Try this some time for a weird trip:

    http://www.supermantv.net/Reviews/ItemId/0963225200/ReviewPage/5

    LOL

    psik
     
  2. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wouldn't remove the Prophets or the Bajor. Initially I really disliked both concepts, but once I started rewatching the series the 2nd time I saw how much they added to the show.

    I think the Pah-Wraiths were a horrible idea though. Some of the episodes centered around them came off like a bad episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or something. Red glowing eyes, people shooting energy beams..it was just lame.

    It also cast the Prophets into the role of being "good", which I never really saw them as. I didn't really see them as good or evil. Just very alien and interested in studying Bajor more than anything else. I always wished they had done a plotline based around someone from Bajor starting to realize that the Prophets weren't actually gods and weren't even particularly interested in Bajor, they just happened to be the closest planet to the wormhole.
     
  3. Anika Hanson

    Anika Hanson Captain Captain

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    I'm not sure really. On the one hand im not too keen on religion taking such a large role in science fiction but the fact that the prophets were in a sense aliens from the gamma quadrent made the whole thing more believable to me. I wouldnt have bought it if were represented in the way religion is on modern day earth.
     
  4. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

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    True!

    But with religion was the only way to understand why Bajor was not really converted from an independent Bajor to a passive outpost without a wish to leave.

    With seventy years of being occupied and without religion it would be a hard sell to say why they wanted independence.
     
  5. Augustus

    Augustus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In fact, of all the major races in Star Trek, aren't Bajorans the only real "religious" people?
    Kligons have gobs of culture, the Cardassians, Romulans, Vulcans, Humans, etc etc are motivated by other things.

    Minor races, usually the kind that appear in one episode have a religion and it often gets in the way of the truth or progress..

    I think that Bajor's belief in Gods and how it actually benefits them on multiple occasions is almost unique in the Trek universe.
     
  6. Damask

    Damask Commander Red Shirt

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    Well the Prophets have said that they "are of Bajor". I really wanted a story about why the Prophets chose to build a wormhole and did they contact a species from the Gamma Quadrant also?
     
  7. Augustus

    Augustus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, they seem very interested in Bajor to me. They saved it, sent orbs, created Sisko so that he would be an instrument for them. Seems to me that they were pretty interested..
     
  8. HRHTheKING

    HRHTheKING Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The thing I loved about the Prophets story is that it was ALWAYS there.

    DS9 never abandoned its initial concept, which was always Sisko and his life/destiny.

    Even during the war, the writers never let the audience forget that the Dominion War etc....was secondary to Sisko/Bajor/Prophets.
     
  9. ODO_FAN_1977

    ODO_FAN_1977 Cadet Newbie

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    Good Thread!!!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonOfMogh [​IMG]
    If you watch episodes like 'In The Pale Moonlight' you get a real picture of what DS9 did best in my eyes.

    QUOTE: No problem with the above but I think something like Rapture is another example of DS9 at it's best. No hokey "magic" as such just a man on a journey and how is employer and family view him.

    Very good point Damask. "Rapture" is a great example where the writers made the religious/spiritual overtones of the prophet storyline work without relying on fantasy elements. It is also a great episode because the writers successfully related the prophet storyline with the dominion arc, something that was lacking in final episodes.

    Originally Posted by SonOfMogh [​IMG]
    I personally think DS9 was at it's best when there were no people firing energy blasts out of their hands or general 'magical' stuff happening.


    QUOTE: I'd agree here though. I found "The Reckoning" to be the weakest of the Prophet storyline mainly because of the hokey effects. Same with how Dax died. Or Red Eye Dukat. Didn't mind the Fire Caves though.

    While I agree with Damask's quote that hokey effects weakened "The Reckoning", the idea that Sisko had come to trust the prophets with Jake's life worked very well into his character arc and was a nice foil to Kai Winn's actions.

    Clearly, the prophet storyline was not executed as well as it good be, particularly towards the end of the series. However, it did add an interesting element to the show and allowed the show to better explore issues of religion and faith. We saw, through the actions of Kai Winn, how religion can be corrupted for political and personal gain, while at the same time, we saw how religion, and more importantly, faith can help a people rise through a crisis or add to a person's convictions (Kira and Sisko). Indeed, Kira's unwavering faith in is one of the most important and endearing aspects of her character. I always found the foil between Kira and Winn and Sisko and Winn (as related to issues of spirtuality) to be a very satsifying part of the DS9 story.

    There are those who feel DS9 cross the line for a sci-fi series, but I would like to point out issues of religion and faith also played important roles in other successfull scif-fi series like B5 and BSG (I can't help but wonder how much RDM's stint on DS9 influened his approach on these issues).

    My issue with DS9 is that I don't quite understand why the writers decided to focus on the fantasy elements as much as they did in the later seasons and that they did not seem to be able to tie the prophet storyline to the dominion arc as they did so effectively in the "Rapture". Nevertheless, IMO DS9 is still the strongest of the Star Trek spin-offs.

    BTW, this is my first post here!!! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
  10. black_dranzer

    black_dranzer Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Not to mention that without the Prophets, the Federation and Klingons would have been in real trouble when those 2800 Dominion ships weren't magically whisked away and came pouring out of the wormhole :lol:
     
  11. Aquehonga

    Aquehonga Fleet Captain

    Great thread SonOfMogh. I agree with & appreciate your basic idea(s) here & what you're getting at.

    I think they went too far off the deep end with the “prophets”. I much prefer to call them wormhole aliens, as that's what they are yes?

    I was wincing when it was suddenly decided Sisko was these “prophets” kid. That episode broke the “prophet” envelope beyond repair.

    I was like: “Oh come on! That's ridicuous! This prophets stuff is way out of hand now.”

    So much for Sisko being a normal human being like Kirk, Picard, Janeway & then-“future” Archer et al?

    Why make Sisko this “Son of Proohets”? I think that was absurd. They ironically “dehumanized” Sisko by doing that.

    They went overboard with the war & the Dominion too. Explaining & detailing everything pretty much about the Dominion.

    B&B, leave something to fan & Trek lit writer's imaginations huh? Some, if not a healthy serving of mystery is a good thing.

    Enough of me & my galliranting about unreal folks & nations.

    Time to eat a McDonald's burger!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2009
  12. Damask

    Damask Commander Red Shirt

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    It depends doesn't it? ;)
     
  13. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My problem with the Prophets was that they changed dramatically from the first episode to the last. Here was a group of aliens who had no concept of linear time, yet at the time, it's discovered that they really did know Sisko and it was all prophecized. I wish they hadn't included Sarah at all and stuck with the original premise. As for the Pah Wraiths, I don't like them because of what they did with Dukat. That whole part of the final chapter was not really good.
     
  14. Damask

    Damask Commander Red Shirt

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    Which is the best thing. Sisko first meets the Prophets. The Prophets first meet Sisko. That's linear. First, second have no meaning to the Prophets.

    They didn't know who Sisko was when they first met, however when they did meet and Sisko explained linear time to them, they realized who he was and then they then created Sisko.
     
  15. TheHungarian

    TheHungarian Ensign Newbie

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    The prophets did SOME good things for the show. They gave us an actual reason as to why Ben Sisko never seems to die. They also did add some good interactions into the plot, like Kai Winn and Sisko hating eachother because he is emissary and she is not.) However I think that when the show became REALLY focused on the Prophets it was stupid. Much of the last season was about the Prophets and pah-wraiths and it just wasn't that fun to watch.

    Also, in response to the post above this one, yea. If the Prophets are not affected by time, or even sense or realize that time exists, wouldn;t all of their messages have come to Sisko at the SAME exact time?! How would they know WHEN to send their messages if they don't what WHEN is?! Ah ha! I just found a big gaping hole in the plot! lol
     
  16. Augustus

    Augustus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps Sisko caused the prophets to be "the prophets". I mean like you say, linear time has no meaning to them. SO they could go back and do whatever they wanted.
     
  17. Damask

    Damask Commander Red Shirt

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    Ah but the Sisko had explained linear time to them. So they know. Before they knew about linear time they used the Orbs to communicate. When they meet Sisko they stop with Orbs and go face to face or send Sisko visions.

    In fact all the Orbs could have been for their Emissary. It;s just they didn't know when to send them, leading to other people finding them and thus creating a religion.
     
  18. Kira Nerys

    Kira Nerys Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I liked the show for the most part the way it originally aired , the only exception is more info on bajoran-cardassian occupation and conflict after the feds took over.