DS9 -- How serialized was it really?

[LJones41]

What was happening more in the late 90s was that television shows were using the series as a long form, whether that meant telling a singular story or multiple overlapping stories, to develop theme and character. To that extent, DS9 (certainly in its last two years) was much closer to The Sopranos than most episodic televion.

"Hill Street Blues" was using that format back in the 1980s. The next television series I can recall using that format was "Babylon Five". I suspect that by the time "DS9" became fully serialized, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" had debuted.

The series is more rewarding if you watch it in order, even the early, episodic shows. There's far more character development over time on DS9 than in any other Trek series.

Perhaps there was more character development than "The Original Series". But I don't believe that "DS9" had more character development than the other Trek series that followed.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But I don't believe that "DS9" had more character development than the other Trek series that followed.

Nog had more depth than half the main characters on Voyager and Enterprise.

 

[retroenzo]

"Hill Street Blues" was using that format back in the 1980s. The next television series I can recall using that format was "Babylon Five". I suspect that by the time "DS9" became fully serialized, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" had debuted.

Perhaps there was more character development than "The Original Series". But I don't believe that "DS9" had more character development than the other Trek series that followed.

Babylon 5 was what kept coming to mind as I was reading this thread as it was also a product of the early 90s. Yes, DS9 was more serialised with more ongoing story arcs than the other Trek series, but compared to B5, and Buffy for that matter, it seemed more episodic.

To be honest, that's how I prefer my TV. There's always a fear now with serialised TV today that if you've missed an episode then you may as well stop watching. I feel like with Star Trek, you can miss the odd episode and still be able to keep up. Even though something may happen like a promotion, or a romance, it can be explained to you quickly. "Oh Sisko's a Captain now," "Sisko and Garak tricked the Romulans into joining the war" "Worf's joined the crew" etc.

If you miss an episode of Game of Thrones, you need half an hour to be brought up to speed. I'm hoping that if Star Trek Discovery is serialised, it means DS9 serialisation at worst, or story arcs at best. The best example I can think of at the moment is The X-Files which had its huge sweeping story arcs but some weeks just churned out a monster of the week story, which were equally as good or better than the conspiracy storyline. That was a show that recently had a successful return to TV and they stuck to the same idea. An arc that was going on in the background but also gave us the brilliant stand-alone episode "Mulder and Scully Meet The Were-Monster".

 

[KelisThePoet]

Yes, but more often than not of the "Luke and Laura" variety. What was happening more in the late 90s was that television shows were using the series as a long form, whether that meant telling a singular story or multiple overlapping stories, to develop theme and character.

I'm not familiar with the program, but if it was a melodramatic soap opera, I'd argue that much of what gets held up as long-term development and character depth in the serialized prime time shows of the 90s on forward is quite similar.

 

[galad2003]

It was serialized compared to other Trek shows and for TV during that time period. Compared to TV shows now, no it's not serialized.

 

[LJones41]

It was serialized compared to other Trek shows and for TV during that time period. Compared to TV shows now, no it's not serialized.

But it has been pointed out that there were other TV shows around the same time that were serialized.

Nog had more depth than half the main characters on Voyager and Enterprise.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's certainly one that I cannot agree with.

 

[Leviathan]

Nog had more depth than half the main characters on Voyager and Enterprise.

Morn had more than the other half.

 

[timtonruben359]

Perhaps there was more character development than "The Original Series". But I don't believe that "DS9" had more character development than the other Trek series that followed.

DS9 is the most character focused Star Trek series to date. Each main character, and many recurring characters too, received significant screen time and the characters grew over the course of 7 seasons. I think with the other Star Trek shows you can pick out the characters that received most of the development easily: Kirk/Spock/McCoy, Picard/Data, Janeway/7/Doc, Archer/Trip/T'Pol.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But it has been pointed out that there were other TV shows around the same time that were serialized.

There were some shows that were, often differently to one another, and to different effect.

 

[Cyke101]

"Perhaps there was more character development than "The Original Series". But I don't believe that "DS9" had more character development than the other Trek series that followed.

To me, one of the simplest (but not easiest!) rules to character development is to see if your characters have fundamentally changed between the first episode and the last. You can certainly make that argument for several Voyager crew: Torres, Paris, famously Seven and the Doctor. But I feel like many characters -- Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, and poor Kim -- pretty much maintain themselves throughout the entire run. Janeway will always be the caring and creative leader, Chakotay the careful stoic, Tuvok the pragmatic logician, Kim the panicky newbie. They were consistent in all seven seasons, and while that's not really a bad thing, it also shows a bit of stagnation. Sure, they have their achievements and tragedies, but those things don't really change them on a personal level (the Doctor, though, was always on a quest of fulfillment and growth; Seven kept trying to figure out individuality; if given the chance, Season 6/7 Paris might have slapped Season 1 Paris to get his act together).

I feel like TNG is roughly in the same boat, too. I love TNG as much as the next person, but I'm hard-pressed to think of how someone like Geordi, Troi, or Beverly changed between Seasons 3 and 7. Riker would get his moments but then revert back to his usual self the next week. Data and Picard seemed to get some genuine, gradual growth.

DS9, though, was in another league. Sisko was hesitant about Starfleet *and* being the emissary early on, and by the end of the series he was leading fleets and sacrificed himself for a holy mission. Kira learned to mellow out and trust outsiders. Odo tragically learned more and more about his people until he made the choice to rejoin them once and for all. Bashir went from arrogant hipster youngin to seasoned moral professional. Worf even gained a few levels in badass after TNG. We saw Jake and Nog grow up and mature with our own eyes, with the war taking its toll on the both of them.

But that's not really it. They're the main characters, they're naturally meant to grow. But that DS9 could afford growth for supporting characters is, where I feel, is strong evidence of more development than any other Trek show. The more we learned about Garak, the more mysterious he became. Rom went from scheming dork to endearing engineer. Dukat kept playing his own game of faux evil/occasional ally until he revealed himself as genuinely maniacal. Damar probably had the biggest change, going from anonymous henchman to major player to heroic martyr.

 

[Relayer1]

Nog had more depth than half the main characters on Voyager and Enterprise.

All.

All the main characters on Voyager and Enterprise...

 

[Bad Thoughts]

To me, one of the simplest (but not easiest!) rules to character development is to see if your characters have fundamentally changed between the first episode and the last. You can certainly make that argument for several Voyager crew: Torres, Paris, famously Seven and the Doctor. But I feel like many characters -- Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, and poor Kim -- pretty much maintain themselves throughout the entire run. Janeway will always be the caring and creative leader, Chakotay the careful stoic, Tuvok the pragmatic logician, Kim the panicky newbie. They were consistent in all seven seasons, and while that's not really a bad thing, it also shows a bit of stagnation. Sure, they have their achievements and tragedies, but those things don't really change them on a personal level (the Doctor, though, was always on a quest of fulfillment and growth; Seven kept trying to figure out individuality; if given the chance, Season 6/7 Paris might have slapped Season 1 Paris to get his act together).

I'm not sure that there is meaningful development in most of those cases. Most series have some early shakedown in which the main characters are recalibrated, losing the rawness that they had in the pilot and becoming more mature. And of course, those characters' lives are filled out (or should be). Of course, that period from seasons 3 to 7 reveals just how static characters can be.

To be fair, not all DS9 characters have significant development when the exigencies of any series are taken into account. O
Brien's development is very linear. Dax takes a severe right turn but is consistent once her rogueishness is introduced. Bashir has fits and starts. The one's who develop significantly are Sisko, Odo, and Kira. Indeed, I'd say that Odo is the most developed character in Trek, in part because he was such a blank slate to start, but also because he was forced to moderate his behaviors and opinions so many times. The things he had to respond to could be both political and interpersonal. And the meaning of those moderations had to be subtley portrayed, a great tribute to the actor.

What makes Nog (and to a lesser extent, Rom) interesting is that his development is both significant and ordinary. He is very different from where he started, but the events that trigger changes could easily be related to: making decisions about work, struggling for respect among piers and seniors, coming to grips with disappointment and mortality. The character feels different at the end of the series, but watching it all the way through shows how logical the development was. We know who most of the Voyager characters were by season 3, as you've said. We make lots of jokes about Harry Kim never getting that deserved promotion. However, it might have been interesting if some story went along with that: he wasn't a talented scientist, he had problems that prevented him from performing optimally, something, anything.

 

[MacLeod]

O'brien recieved a reasonable amount of development on TNG when he was a recurring character.

 

[Phoenix219]

It was serialized in that groundbreaking early 90s "X Files" inspired story arc / mythology. shows. Tons of modern shows like Supernatural and Fringe are literally, in some ways, children of the X Files.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

O'brien recieved a reasonable amount of development on TNG when he was a recurring character.

Once "minstrel boy to the war had gone," O'Brien was pretty much who he was. His story fills out, he becomes less judgemental, he has a bromance, etc. He remained, though, the common man. (That is not to say that their were no great stories for O'Brien, or that Meaney did not put his all into the character.)

 

[Leviathan]

O'brien recieved a reasonable amount of development on TNG when he was a recurring character.

http://chiefobrienatwork.com/ developed the character more than TNG.

 

[KelisThePoet]

DS9 is the most character focused Star Trek series to date. Each main character, and many recurring characters too, received significant screen time and the characters grew over the course of 7 seasons. I think with the other Star Trek shows you can pick out the characters that received most of the development easily: Kirk/Spock/McCoy, Picard/Data, Janeway/7/Doc, Archer/Trip/T'Pol.

That makes it an ensemble show, but not a heavily serialized show. I'd argue that The Next Generation was just as much an ensemble show. It was only the Next Generation movies that turned the focus more predominantly to Picard and Data.

To me, one of the simplest (but not easiest!) rules to character development is to see if your characters have fundamentally changed between the first episode and the last. You can certainly make that argument for several Voyager crew: Torres, Paris, famously Seven and the Doctor. But I feel like many characters -- Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, and poor Kim -- pretty much maintain themselves throughout the entire run. Janeway will always be the caring and creative leader, Chakotay the careful stoic, Tuvok the pragmatic logician, Kim the panicky newbie. They were consistent in all seven seasons, and while that's not really a bad thing, it also shows a bit of stagnation.

In the case of Chakotay, Tuvok and Kim, it just shows that the writers chose to focus on the more dramatically interesting characters. Not every show needs to be an ensemble show. Some stories just work better with a few main characters and a supporting cast.

Janeway is more complicated. Her steadiness, much like Kirk's steadiness in the original Star Trek is what makes her a leader we can trust, along with her crew. Some people are steady leaders in real life, so I don't have a problem seeing those kinds of people in fiction. One of the reasons I didn't care much for Enterprise is because, in trying to develop Archer's character, the writers turned him from a halfway decent leader to a flawed, tortured leader not worth following. But by contrast, I liked the way Deep Space Nine developed Sisko from a troubled but competent commanding officer into a truly great leader.

 

[Phoenix219]

Haha. Archer didn't change Sam just lept out.