DS9: Force and Motion by Jeffrey Lang blurb

[Jeffrey_Lang]

I'm very pleased to see that the topic of incarceration and rehabilitation has sparked so much discussion. The opportunity to explore those ideas -- and how they intersect with the treatment of PTSD -- was one of the reasons I was attracted to the project. Maxwell is a fascinating character and I look forward to hearing what you all think of my treatment of him (and my treatment of his treatment).

Serious stuff aside, mostly "Force and Motion" is an adventure story and an opportunity for me to write O'Brien/Nog banter. I love writing those guys, especially Nog.

 

[Idran]

Oh, I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion, now I don't feel so bad about the branch into the subject.

But yeah, I'm greatly looking forward to this work for both aspects of it. I can't wait!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They might well have tried to bust him out of prison to recruit him.

I never got the impression the Maquis were powerful enough to launch an attack a secure Federation penal facility and extract a prisoner.

They could have used an operative within Starfleet to get Maxwell out. A counterfeit order here, a convenient shuttle there, and Maxwell's a free man. With an axe to grind...

could have resulted in the escape of other inmates, others who even the Maquis would agree should have been locked up.

I don't think I'd want to meet the type of person who even the Maquis don't want.

 

[Idran]

....anyone who committed a legitimate crime that had nothing to do with Federation/Cardassian relations or the DMZ?

 

[JD]

I'm really looking forward to this one. I'm a huge fan of Nog and O'Brien, so the idea of a novel focused on them makes me very interested, and hearing that it follows up on Maxwell only makes me more interested.

 

[rahullak]

.

I am not advocating for a fully punishment oriented system, but if you are rehabilitating someone there have to be real consequences for their actions. Long-lasting consequences.

Consequences aren't meant for rehabilitation, they're meant for deterrence. The idea is that you make people afraid to commit misdeeds for fear of what will happen to them as a result. But if they go ahead and commit the crimes anyway, then they're not afraid of consequences. Either they're pathological enough that they don't care, or they sincerely believed it was worth paying the price.

On the whole, I don't think negative reinforcement works all that well. Positive reinforcement -- giving rewards for doing good rather than just penalties for doing bad -- tends to be more effective at modifying behavior, whether in people or in animals. It's not enough to say "Don't do that or else" and leave the rest blank -- you need to guide people toward a better alternative. It's never enough to knock one thing down unless you have something better to offer in its place.

I did not say consequences are meant for rehabilitation. If you read the lower part of my post, I spoke about deterrence. I said that Maxwell not being able to become captain again would be a consequence. That's not part of rehabilitation, obviously.

Without any kind of credible deterrence it would be too easy to commit a crime and get away with it. And even in the enlightened 24th century, there's going to be such people realistically.

Obviously, deterrence is needed. And Maxwell not getting to be captain again for his 600 mass murder is like a slap on the wrist with a sponge. And this news spreads across the Federation, and more of those with criminal intent and weak conscience allow themselves to take that small step to the dark side.

You may argue that rehabilitation is such a sure-shot that it will be a 100% guarantee every time.

That's a straw man -- obviously he's arguing nothing of the kind, because nobody ever would. No system works perfectly in every single case, but that doesn't mean it isn't a successful system. Occasionally a plane will crash, but that doesn't mean that planes on the whole aren't safe. Occasionally a surgeon will make a mistake, but that doesn't mean the practice of surgery never saves a single life. Occasionally a Starfleet captain will go rogue, but that doesn't mean Starfleet is an evil organization.

Obviously. That's the point. Therefore, there have to be consequences. A measure of control on the future actions of the criminal. And like I said, Maxwell not getting to be captain is hardly any restriction compared to the scale of his crime.

 

[rahullak]

Right. This isn't a thought experiment: it's been shown that rehabilitative criminal justice systems result in lower crime rates and lower rates of recidivism than punishment-oriented criminal justice systems. Again, I'll point you towards the Norwegian system, where even Breivik was sentenced to 21 years with five-year extensions should he be judged unable to re-enter society, the "maximum indeterminate" sentence under Norwegian law. He with near-certainty will never be allowed back into society. But only near-certainty, not actual certainty. He's even been allowed distance entry into the University of Oslo's Political Science program while being held. And there was almost no outrage whatsoever within the nation, even among families of his victims.

For further comparison, this sentence is only given for those who are a danger to society as a whole, mass murders or other severe violent offenders that have been judged otherwise sane and for which rehabilitation is unlikely. For all other crimes, the maximum determinate sentence under Norwegian law is a strict 21 years, with unsupervised weekend parole after a third of the sentence has been completed and potential for early release after two-thirds has been completed. Most prisons are open-air facilities without containment, without deprivation of resources, with open interaction between guards and inmates, with open unrestricted vocational training available for all inmates. They don't even remove knives from the open inmate kitchens. Look into conditions in Halden or Bastoy Prisons, two of the major ones in that country.

And it works. The rate of recidivism in Norway is only 20%, compared to over 50% here in the US, and the crime rate itself, especially violent crime, is significantly lower as compared to the US.

The evidence is solid: strict incarceration increases recidivism, rehabilitation with a goal towards eventual re-integration reduces it.

Undeniable. Yet, reintegration need not mean that we give the same responsibilities and authority to the former criminal putting him in a position to abuse it.

The evidence is solid: strict incarceration increases recidivism, rehabilitation with a goal towards eventual re-integration reduces it.

Which makes perfect sense to me. Humans are a social species. It's healthy for us to interact as part of a community, and the responsibilities, examples, and pressures that come with membership in that community are regulating influences on our behavior. Isolating people from that community would tend to be unhealthy and have a negative impact on their behavior.

It's even been shown, according to something I read recently (I don't remember just where), that sex offenders who are integrated into a community are less likely to repeat their offenses than ones who are shunned and isolated, because if they're part of a community, they're more likely to develop a sense of responsibility and empathy for the others in that community rather than being purely self-directed -- and also because their behavior is more closely supervised and regulated when they spend more time around other people. Nobody wants to engage with sex offenders because we're so disgusted by their actions, but isolating them does more harm than good. So it's a question of whether we want to choose what makes us feel comfortable or what actually works.

Agreed. We can get by just fine group socializing with a sex offender. But would we allow a sex offender to become a babysitter?

I'm very pleased to see that the topic of incarceration and rehabilitation has sparked so much discussion. The opportunity to explore those ideas -- and how they intersect with the treatment of PTSD -- was one of the reasons I was attracted to the project. Maxwell is a fascinating character and I look forward to hearing what you all think of my treatment of him (and my treatment of his treatment).

It's an honor to have you read my posts, sir. I'm enjoying the conversation, although it appears I am bested (as usual ).
Really looking forward to the book now.

 

[Stoek]

The discussion is fascinating but I think there is one thing that no one seems to be considering in regards to where Maxwell ends up. It may have nothing to do with how others regard him, but rather how he regards himself.

 

[rahullak]

The discussion is fascinating but I think there is one thing that no one seems to be considering in regards to where Maxwell ends up. It may have nothing to do with how others regard him, but rather how he regards himself.

True.

He may be really repentant, beating himself up for what he's done. Maybe just trying to put one foot in front of the next and get through life. His thin thread of self-esteem redeemed by the fact that the Cardassians really were a threat and his actions brought that out.

 

[Idran]

I think I agree with you more than I disagree, rahullak; I think my main issue is the idea that he should never be allowed captaincy again. I still think that if he's proven himself over an extended period following his release - say, decades of slowly moving up the ranks once more, having started his Starfleet career essentially from scratch and re-entered at the same level as a green ensign fresh out of the Academy with all seniority officially cleared from the board and with having to dealing with the reactions of both peers and superior officers throughout the process, having to literally re-establish himself and his reputation even with the weight of his actions - then it should be possible. After 20, 30, 40 years of exemplary conduct after his release without a single slip in order to truly demonstrate that he is not the sort of person who would perform in such a manner ever again.

But other than that one sticking point, I think we do essentially agree, yeah. And in reconsideration, I'm not so stuck on that point that I'd think it outrageous that that not be allowed. I'm more just "well after he theoretically did all that, is there any more risk from him than from a brand-new captain that's never before held the chair?"

 

[flandry84]

Ben Maxwell was a highly regarded and decorated Starfleet captain who,(if I recall it correctly) commanded the vessel that responded to the cardassian sneak attack on a UFP colony.The same sneak attack that resulted in the butchering of Maxwell's wife and children.
Even Jack McCoy would go easy on him after that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm sure Starfleet DID go easy on Maxwell during his trial and sentencing, simply because of extreme emotional disturbance. If not for that, Maxwell might well have been sentenced to life.

 

[flandry84]

Starfleet does do rehabilitation.Again I'm open to correction but wasn't Garth put in a position of responsibility again?

 

[Christopher]

Again I'm open to correction but wasn't Garth put in a position of responsibility again?

Canonically, he was never mentioned after "Whom Gods Destroy." In DC Comics, he was given a harmless position in the Starfleet records division with an eye toward an eventual teaching position. In the novel Garth of Izar, he was returned to duty but not as a captain, and was assigned to Antos IV to repair the damage he did there, eventually becoming the ambassador to that world.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the novel Garth of Izar, he was returned to duty but not as a captain, and was assigned to Antos IV to repair the damage he did there, eventually becoming the ambassador to that world.

Now that is as perfect an idea for a rehab as I have ever seen.

Pity the same thing couldn't have been applied to Maxwell.

 

[Markonian]

In the novel Garth of Izar, he was returned to duty but not as a captain, and was assigned to Antos IV to repair the damage he did there, eventually becoming the ambassador to that world.

Now that is as perfect an idea for a rehab as I have ever seen.

Pity the same thing couldn't have been applied to Maxwell.

Given Human life expectency in the 24th century, it's not out of the question.

 

[Idran]

^ I'm sure Starfleet DID go easy on Maxwell during his trial and sentencing, simply because of extreme emotional disturbance. If not for that, Maxwell might well have been sentenced to life.

If Starfleet even has life sentences.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Well if they gave him a harsh sentence, maybe they reduced it a bit once the Dominion War broke out, paralleling how they offered ex-Maquis deals in part because history proved them to be right.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

they offered ex-Maquis deals in part because history proved them to be right.

History is irrelevant.

I mean, if you went out and shot your next door neighbor in cold blood because you thought he was a terrorist, and it later turned out that he was, that still doesn't make it "right".

 

[Idran]

Even besides that, I don't think that ex-Maquis were given deals because "history proved them right". I think that they had deals as part of an effort to put the past behind them because it no longer mattered. Truman pardoned imprisoned WW2 draft dodgers in 1947, I think it's more along those lines.

And it probably helped that excluding Voyager there were probably only a handful of surviving Maquis anyway. Nothing would be achieved by prosecuting and sentencing them beyond "well we gotta".