DS9 Episodes- Silly Mistakes, NitPicks, Inaccuracies

[Nightdiamond]

^ He couldn't have stayed second, I don't think. The position of second is too active, and it is obvious from that ep that an elder finishes their career. I'd imagine they train the very young or have, since they are "honoured" some kind of other role- maybe training advanced tactics or something... things you can't implant.

And we've seen letters on pads etc. Babel for instance... I think that's what it was called.

For some reason they don't say why the Honored Elder had to leave after that last mission-other than maybe because the unit consisted of all "Alphas" and having a "Gamma" would cause problems.

The Idea that Honored Elders are used to train other Jem Hadar is a good one, except the note that no Jem Hadar has ever lived to be 30 years, which suggests they continue fighting in active units.

So what happened to him?


Another question for Marie or everyone else as well- In some articles about the Jem Hadar, it is said that they are cloned, like the Vorta are.

But in the actual episodes they are said to be bred, so that must mean they are created in separate manner, almost the way someone would breed, well, horses.

Not on THAT pad, lol. It just had symbols on it, large one too. Has anyone noticed that, especially on T.N.G?

 

[Marie1]

^ I don't think it ever says in the show that they are cloned, and that wouldn't be sensible (to make them a la Vorta) at all anyway.

They are bred in that they are all individual, each one has aspects that are a result of a unique genetic combination- none of them are the same in the show- they are all very distinct. But they're probably made in vitro or in a like manner, as established, there are no women. But the concept didn't seem unknown to them- they're probably the result of aspects of more than one species.

Elders could still die- combat situations demanding all nearby troops etc. and still not be required for regular duty. It's also possible they serve closer to Founders, tho from what Goron'agar said, that's unlikely. They "finish their careers" but still do stuff- they're made for combat, after all.

No, I was talking about the pad in the episode there people say random words, on the pad, the words went from normal, to random ones. But the effect was probably too expensive to use often, since they even used stock to make the battles in DS9.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Ok, here's one that someone else spotted; in "Shattered Mirror", after the Defiant fighting the Klingon ships, we go back to what's happening on the station;

The station is hit, and is supposed to rock- as Kira is walking Jennifer at gunpoint.

Jennifer is supposed to stumble as the station pretends to shakes, but this seems to crack Kira up!

She looks like she is bent over laughing, and as she recovers to talk to Jennifer, you can still hear a hint of laughter in it.

Another nit for Sacrifice of Angels- Worf and Martok are supposed to go to Gowron and convince him to send a fleet of their own to help the Federation retake the station.

Sisko learns the Dukat is about to take down the minefield, and he and what few fleets he has rushes to stop them.

The other Federation fleets can't arrive in time, but we assume they're rushing too.

At this point, after learning the minefield was coming down and Starfleet was rushing to stop it, did Gowron really remain that stubborn and needed more convincing?

Surely Starfleet told Gowron what was happening.

More like deciding to send a fleet when only minutes remained for the minefield to be brought down?

It couldn't have been about distance; they arrived before any other Federation fleet did, so they must have been closer.

A nit on the Cardassian/Federation treaty; the Cardassians were caught ferrying weapons in the Demilitarized Zone; Later they were caught attempting to invade or cause an "incursion" into a Federation territory; lured and tortured a Starfleet officer; One of their ships attacked an unarmed DS9 with little provocation other than they couldn't find one of their own ships;

And then the Federation signs a treaty with them within a few years after that? Giving them territory? Should they be surprised Cardassia joined the Dominion later on?

How old is the Dominion? In one DS9 episode we get 2000 years, and in one of the last episodes, we get 10,000 years.


In "Way of the Warrior" during the scene where the Klingons beam aboard Ops, the officers fight for their lives. When you look a Dax's fight scene, she blocks a Klingon's Batleth strike with hers, then simply kicks him in the midsection and he goes down and doesn't get back up!

 

[Nightdiamond]

How smart are the Klingons? Nitpick:

In Chimmera, two Klingon soldiers decide to harass Laas when they see him on the promenade.

Despite Odo telling him, he had nothing to do with the Founders, they still insist on blaming the war on Laas.

Then, after being insulted by Laas, one takes his knife out and stabs Laas, knowing full well he's a changeling and wouldn't be harmed by it.

Laas then mimics a sword out of his arm and then kills his comrade when it seems he is going for a weapon.





In Rocks and Shoals, Kevan tell Sisko that he is ordering the Jem Hadar to attack them, and tells Sisko their plan of attack, telling him it should be easy to ambush and kill them.

Understandably, he has serious problems with simply mowing the Jem Hadar down.

Later, Sisko and his crew are already in position, and he calls out to the Jem Hadar to talk; it doesn't work, they return to their positions, and after the firefight, although Sisko and his crew wins, he lost one crew member, and possibly because he let the Jem Hadar know they were there, and where they were.

Couldn't Sisko and his crew had just stunned them from their positions without any warning, preventing any side from sufferening casualties?




In Sacrifice of Angels, in the scene right after the Defiant loses it's two escorts, the Defiant is weaving through ships-in the background it looks like a Galaxy class ship is destroying some type Dominion object, but it's not very clear.

If so, what makes this interesting is that onscreen, this is the first time you can see a starfleet ship, other than the Defiant or runabout types, destroying a Dominion ship.

No other starfleet vessel is seen actually destroying a Dominion ship, although we see Klingon, Cardassian, even Breen ships doing this.



What happened to the genetically engineered people in Bashir spoke to? Why didn't Starfleet's top officers work with them to find ways to beat the Dominion like they suggested?

 

[Marie1]

"Later, Sisko and his crew are already in position, and he calls out to the Jem Hadar to talk; it doesn't work, they return to their positions, and after the firefight, although Sisko and his crew wins, he lost one crew member, and possibly because he let the Jem Hadar know they were there, and where they were."

A) The guy sucked and didn't use cover properly.
B) You can't have all the Jem'Hadar die in vain (from the standpoint of the Fed. officers) while suffering no casualties- if you did, it'd look like the Jem'hadar were just poor soldiers (White-withdrawl aside) and they weren't.

It was just logical they'd have an expendable cast member to die too, to the Jem'Hadar would get at least one.

"How old is the Dominion? In one DS9 episode we get 2000 years, and in one of the last episodes, we get 10,000 years."

First, always remember- Vorta lie. Second, the early ep. is To the Death, and I think Weyoun says that "the Dominion has existed for over 2000 years..." Odo was gone for over 60, and that plan seems fairly recent, they had enough time to engineer Jem'hadar, take over a chunk of a quadrant... take a lot of time. Plus, it could be argued that when the Vorta helped the Founders, it was long enough ago that they weren't good shape-shifters.

 

[Captrek]

In “The Die is Cast,” Odo and Garak are running from the battle in a runabout. The Jem’Hadar attack and completely drain the runabout’s shields before the Defiant beams them aboard. The Jem’Hadar then proceed to attack the Defiant.

I thought the Jem’Hadar could not harm a changeling. Couldn’t Odo have stopped the attack simply by hailing the Jem’Hadar and letting them know he was aboard?

For that matter, I thought the Jem’Hadar could not disobey a changeling. Couldn’t Odo have stopped the battle altogether by ordering the Jem’Hadar to surrender? Along those lines, if the Jem’Hadar can’t disobey a changeling, what do they do when two changelings give conflicting orders?

(Come to think of it, I suppose the Founders could have ordered the Jem’Hadar to shut down their com systems to prevent them from hearing of Odo’s presence or hearing any orders from him, but that’s a fanwank. There’s nothing about that on screen, and Odo makes no attempt to communicate. Issuing such an order to the JH would also seem to violate the “no changeling has ever harmed another” rule because it almost got Odo killed.)

 

[Nightdiamond]

In “The Die is Cast,” Odo and Garak are running from the battle in a runabout. The Jem’Hadar attack and completely drain the runabout’s shields before the Defiant beams them aboard. The Jem’Hadar then proceed to attack the Defiant.

I thought the Jem’Hadar could not harm a changeling. Couldn’t Odo have stopped the attack simply by hailing the Jem’Hadar and letting them know he was aboard?

For that matter, I thought the Jem’Hadar could not disobey a changeling. Couldn’t Odo have stopped the battle altogether by ordering the Jem’Hadar to surrender? Along those lines, if the Jem’Hadar can’t disobey a changeling, what do they do when two changelings give conflicting orders?

(Come to think of it, I suppose the Founders could have ordered the Jem’Hadar to shut down their com systems to prevent them from hearing of Odo’s presence or hearing any orders from him, but that’s a fanwank. There’s nothing about that on screen, and Odo makes no attempt to communicate. Issuing such an order to the JH would also seem to violate the “no changeling has ever harmed another” rule because it almost got Odo killed.)

That's true-surely the Changeling imposter would have told the Jem Hadar that Odo was aboard the very Runabout it gave him access to escape in.

It happens a few times througout the series. A Vorta in the Search should recognize Odo as a Founder, but did you notice the way he sneers at Odo?

In To The Death, the Jem Hadar call Odo "The Traitor", and talk about his punishment, though not quite directly.

Yet, strangly, in the compound scene, when Worf tosses Odo to the floor and he changes from the bag, the rebel Jem Hadar hesitated to attack him.

Also the other Changelings at times seem to forget their creed not to harm another Changeling. The Changeling that was trying to sabotage the Defiant continued doing it even though it knew Odo was aboard.

A) The guy sucked and didn't use cover properly.
B) You can't have all the Jem'Hadar die in vain (from the standpoint of the Fed. officers) while suffering no casualties- if you did, it'd look like the Jem'hadar were just poor soldiers (White-withdrawl aside) and they weren't.

It was just logical they'd have an expendable cast member to die too, to the Jem'Hadar would get at least one.

One thing I always disliked about some trek episodes is when the unknown crew member gets zapped, but has either no speaking role or no personality, so it doesn't always make an impact.

They don't seem 3 dimensional. Yet unspeaking Jem Hadar seem way more interesting just from the description of them alone, strange isn't it?

Still, it was too easy, all they had to do was stun, and then take them prisoner- and the crew member that was killed was farther back than most of the others!

They had so much time to set up their ambush and make sure they had proper cover.

Unavoidable nit, Marie - 2,000 versus 10,000 years ago?

However, given - Weyoun did say he was a master at lies - and if the Breen had a civilization that was even older than the Federation, maybe Weyoun exaggerated a bit to match them.

Or could it be an example of writers being brought in who might not be famillar with DS9 or trek who accidently mixes up the numbers? I heard that sometimes happens...

 

[Captrek]

Also the other Changelings at times seem to forget their creed not to harm another Changeling. The Changeling that was trying to sabotage the Defiant continued doing it even though it knew Odo was aboard.

I don’t think he intended to destroy the Defiant. I think the plan was to attack a Tzenkethi base, then cloak and get the hell out of there before the Tzenkethi could destroy the Defiant. If worse came to worst, he could have beamed himself and Odo off the ship (if the Tzenkethi target was on a planet).

 

[Marie1]

A) The guy sucked and didn't use cover properly.
B) You can't have all the Jem'Hadar die in vain (from the standpoint of the Fed. officers) while suffering no casualties- if you did, it'd look like the Jem'hadar were just poor soldiers (White-withdrawl aside) and they weren't.

It was just logical they'd have an expendable cast member to die too, to the Jem'Hadar would get at least one.

One thing I always disliked about some trek episodes is when the unknown crew member gets zapped, but has either no speaking role or no personality, so it doesn't always make an impact.

They don't seem 3 dimensional. Yet unspeaking Jem Hadar seem way more interesting just from the description of them alone, strange isn't it?

No. We are awesome!

Still, it was too easy, all they had to do was stun, and then take them prisoner- and the crew member that was killed was farther back than most of the others!

Well, still the White problem, and you can't force medical attn on people.

Unavoidable nit, Marie - 2,000 versus 10,000 years ago?

I'd say it's over 2000 years... it might depend too on the definition of Dominion- as a power, as leaders, as shapeshifters...

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Unavoidable nit, Marie - 2,000 versus 10,000 years ago?

I'd say it's over 2000 years... it might depend too on the definition of Dominion- as a power, as leaders, as shapeshifters...

It did mention the Jem'Hadar have been the primary line of defense for the Dominion for 2000 years; this seems to suggest it existed in some form before then.

 

[Marie1]

^ Yes!!

 

[Nightdiamond]

In fact 3 different references; "In to the Death", Weyoun says; "the Dominion has endured for over 2,000 years...."

In "Dogs of war Weyoun" says; ""Perish the thought; the Dominion has never surrendered in battle since its founding 10,000 years ago."

In "What You Leave Behind", the Founder says, "But for two millennia the Jem'Hadar have been the Dominion's first line of defense"

The only date involving the Jem Hadar is 2,000 years- the dates for how long the Dominion has 'lasted' - 2,000 years, by both the Founder and Weyoun.

They mentioned the Dominion being "founded" that means the official structure was established and named 10,000 years ago and they were already fighting battles.

Ok, three different versions in the canon, big nit -unless someone can take up the challenge and exonerate them.


Many different sources seem to believe the Jem Hadar are cloned;

From "Answerbag.com":

What WOULD a Jem’hadar woman look like?

Answer - They actually don't have gender, or need for gender, as they are all clones. They have a masculine form as they are built for combat, but I doubt they have the "equipment" to be counted as true males. A feminine Jem'hadar would probably be just as butt-ugly as the rest of them.

From IMDB.COM;

Commander Sisko (Avery Brooks) and Quark (Armin Shimerman), along with a female Vorta (Molly Hagen), are captured by the Jem'Hader, a race of clones that serve a mysterious species known as "The Dominion".

I tend to believe they are bred instead of cloned, the difference being they are made from genetic scratch, possibly an automated process. They emerge as infants and then develop directly as they are designed/programmed.

The Vorta seem to be already adults waiting to be activated, and they have some of their previous clone's memories intact.

And How do Vorta get their previous memories from a former clone?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

And How do Vorta get their previous memories from a former clone?

The books suggest a brain implant records them. I guess the Vorta download from the implant into some sort of backup file at regular intervals, and when a new clone is activated the latest copy is downloaded to their implant. Vorta may be cyborgs.

 

[Nightdiamond]

And How do Vorta get their previous memories from a former clone?

The books suggest a brain implant records them. I guess the Vorta download from the implant into some sort of backup file at regular intervals, and when a new clone is activated the latest copy is downloaded to their implant. Vorta may be cyborgs.

I think that makes the most sense- they definetly have brain implants for things like suicide, maybe even those powers Eris had.

Might explain why the Weyoun clone was 'defective'; Damar was suspected of causing a transporter accident, and if the previous Weyoun didn't have enough time to download newer information, his clone may have had an important memory block or gap that caused the behavior he showed..

 

[Captrek]

In fact 3 different references; "In to the Death", Weyoun says; "the Dominion has endured for over 2,000 years...."

In "Dogs of war Weyoun" says; ""Perish the thought; the Dominion has never surrendered in battle since its founding 10,000 years ago."

In "What You Leave Behind", the Founder says, "But for two millennia the Jem'Hadar have been the Dominion's first line of defense"

The only date involving the Jem Hadar is 2,000 years- the dates for how long the Dominion has 'lasted' - 2,000 years, by both the Founder and Weyoun.

They mentioned the Dominion being "founded" that means the official structure was established and named 10,000 years ago and they were already fighting battles.

Ok, three different versions in the canon, big nit -unless someone can take up the challenge and exonerate them.

The Dominion was originally founded 10,000 years ago. At some point, the Founders were defeated, ending their control over the Gamma quadrant. 2,000 years ago they created the Jem’Hadar and reestablished control over the quadrant.

So it was founded 10,000 years ago (making the second statement above correct), but it has only endured continuously as a significant power for the last 2,000 years (making the first statement correct) and been defended by the Jem’Hadar for two millenia (making the third statement correct).

How’s that? Works for me.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

In fact 3 different references; "In to the Death", Weyoun says; "the Dominion has endured for over 2,000 years...."

In "Dogs of war Weyoun" says; ""Perish the thought; the Dominion has never surrendered in battle since its founding 10,000 years ago."

In "What You Leave Behind", the Founder says, "But for two millennia the Jem'Hadar have been the Dominion's first line of defense"

The only date involving the Jem Hadar is 2,000 years- the dates for how long the Dominion has 'lasted' - 2,000 years, by both the Founder and Weyoun.

They mentioned the Dominion being "founded" that means the official structure was established and named 10,000 years ago and they were already fighting battles.

Ok, three different versions in the canon, big nit -unless someone can take up the challenge and exonerate them.

The Dominion was originally founded 10,000 years ago. At some point, the Founders were defeated, ending their control over the Gamma quadrant. 2,000 years ago they created the Jem’Hadar and reestablished control over the quadrant.

So it was founded 10,000 years ago (making the second statement above correct), but it has only endured continuously as a significant power for the last 2,000 years (making the first statement correct) and been defended by the Jem’Hadar for two millenia (making the third statement correct).

How’s that? Works for me.

And that does not contradict having never surrendered in 10,000 years. Surrendering and being defeated are two different things.

 

[ATW]

Ok, three different versions in the canon, big nit -unless someone can take up the challenge and exonerate them.

To be fair I don't see a nit pick there. Although I think I should as it boils my blood, just like when I hear an the words "Ireland - 600 years of British Oppression", even Historians come out with that ****. Even though "Britain" is only 202 years old.

You need to look at what the saying means, do they mean the Dominion as in the Founders/Vorta/Jem'Hadar or does it mean the founding of the Founders? I bet if Historians were to talk about the Dominion they could not even agree when or where the Dominion is founded! For me, it's not a mistake nor a nitpick, just sweeping statements that have not been studied further.

 

[Too Much Fun]

In "Blood Oath", Kor and Koloth are both surprised when they meet Jadzia for the first time and are told that she used to be Curzon, yet Kor says "he brought the four of us together" and later she says, "they came here to tell me about the Albino". Kang seems just as unaware of her presence on the station and who she is as his friends do.

When Dax tries to reminisce with him about one time when they sat together somewhere, he says "I never sat with you before today" forcing her to explain who she is, and then later he confirms that he didn't know that Curzon died. It seems clear that Kang went there to tell Kor and Koloth that he'd found the Albino, but not Jadzia (as he didn't even know who she was), so is her and Kor saying that he did a continuity error?

 

[Nightdiamond]

I'll be back later with a big argument AGAINST the founding 10,00 years ago concept! lol

 

[Nightdiamond]

Premise; Dominion was founded 10,000 years ago, fought battles, was defeated;

..8,000 years later, or 2,000 years ago, the Founders create the Jem Hadar, and as a result the Domion, never having retreated, and having the Jem Hadar, has endured unchallenged for over 2,000 years..

Now, this pulls together nicely, and appears to solve a big contradiction about how old the Dominion actually is.

Of course the biggest obstacle is the "is it canon?" argument, but I like explainations that goes beyond canon...

In To the Death", taking a look at what was said before Weyoun made the comment about the Dominion enduring for 2,000 years may actually contain a clue.

The issue is about how the Founders had to addict the Jem Hadar to the drug because there was no guarantee the Founders could always control them, and Sisko stating that the Dominion might not be as stable as they think, is what prompted Weyoun to make the comment.

So it's the stability of the Dominion that causes Weyoun's response.



And the idea that the Dominion was founded, but was defeated and then restablished with the Jem Hadar still misses the point;

The Dominion HAD to be victorious if they never surrendered in battel!



Other sites also makes note of the contradiction;
Fom MemoryAlpha:


In "The Dogs of War", Weyoun 8 stated that the Dominion hasn't surrendered in battle since it was founded ten thousand years ago. This contradicts the date of 2,000 years stated by Weyoun 4 in "To the Death", which seems to be corroborated with what the Female Changeling said regarding the Jem'Hadar in "What You Leave Behind".




Weyoun even contradicts himself;

Weyoun's OWN predecessor, his previous clone, (himself) made the comment about the Dominion's 'enduring' for over 2,000 years.


Exhibit two; this is very interesting too; in the two episodes where the 2,000 year date is mention the writer is Ira Steven Behr, he was the writer for "To the Death" and "What You Leave Behind"..

The statements were made by both the Founder and Weyoun and stay with the 2,000 year date;


The writer for episode that involved the 10,000 year date is Ronald Moore.

And interestingly, it is Weyoun who is made to say 10,000 years, but this is from a different writer (Ronald Moore) this time.

So, different writers, different dates?