Poll Dryson Array vs. Dyson Sphere

[ZapBrannigan]

I know most on this forum consider "electric sun" a joke. But just for the sake of argument, assume the Sun is part of a plasma circuit—charge flows in and out. Now imagine the Homer Simpson moment when a Dyson sphere is completed. D'oh!

Well, in that case... If the galactic current were pinched off by a Dyson sphere and the sun went out, the sun would become a gas-giant rogue planet. And its planets would become frozen moons-- all hidden inside an ultra-giant, hollow artificial rogue planet like a matryoshka doll.

It's a public works project that could go down as one of the biggest political mistakes in the galaxy, if anyone could see it all to keep score.

But I'm pretty sure that, in all of the (let's say) two trillion stars of our local group of galaxies, no one will ever build a Dyson sphere. It's too expensive.

 

[Dryson]

Well, in that case... If the galactic current were pinched off by a Dyson sphere and the sun went out, the sun would become a gas-giant rogue planet. And its planets would become frozen moons-- all hidden inside an ultra-giant, hollow artificial rogue planet like a matryoshka doll.

It's a public works project that could go down as one of the biggest political mistakes in the galaxy, if anyone could see it all to keep score.

But I'm pretty sure that, in all of the (let's say) two trillion stars of our local group of galaxies, no one will ever build a Dyson sphere. It's too expensive.

Most likely yes, too expensive.

Given that a Dryson Array would be built around a Jupiter sized planetary environment the array would be able to power other facilities that would include colonies built to mine the billions of a mineral rich rocks orbiting the planet for commercial ship building and facility needs as well as the shipyards and service platforms for the commercial ships and mining ships as well.

I'm not certain about gas mining on a planet like Jupiter though but the band around the planet could also have arrays powered by the central TEG array that would harvest and process the gases from the planet to be used for commerical purposes as well.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I know most on this forum consider "electric sun" a joke. But just for the sake of argument, assume the Sun is part of a plasma circuit—charge flows in and out. Now imagine the Homer Simpson moment when a Dyson sphere is completed. D'oh!

The Sun is electric, although perhaps not in the sense you mean (I could never get my head around the electric sun theories). The rotation of the interplanetary magnetic field combined with its outward transport in the solar wind and division into separate the opposite magnetic polarities by the heliospheric current sheet with its associated inward radial current of 3x10^9 A results in an electric potential between the heliospheric poles of something of the order of 150 million volts (if I recall correctly). The circuit is closed by outward currents over the solar poles. There is speculation that a similar galactic current sheet might exist with a radial current of between 10^17 and 10^19 A.

 

[Metryq]

Jupiter routinely exchanges bolts with Io on the order of millions of Amperes.

A project called SAFIRE is testing some of the electric sun concepts now. What is certain is that interplanetary space is not electrically neutral, as some maintain. Whatever is going on, we should understand it thoroughly before considering something like a Dyson sphere or ring. (Similarly, we should understand weather and climate before presuming to control it. It would be embarrassing to snuff humanity by mistake. Oops.)

Still, these current sheets put one in mind of Trek's "barrier" at the edge of the galaxy. Beware the Kelvins and Gamilons beyond.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

My opinion is that the statement that space is electrically neutral is likely to be true only in the sense of bulk averaging and that significant charge imbalance could occur more frequently and on larger scales than is usually reckoned. After all, much of the observable universe is in an ionised state and (from what little I recall learning 40 years ago) plasma physics usually deals with perturbations with small charge separation. Astrophysicists tends to overlook the potential for electric double layers to form in low density plasma where the Debye length is relatively large. More experiment rather than simplifying assumption is required.

 

[Metryq]

More experiment rather than simplifying assumption is required.

More experiment with plasmas? At least they can be manipulated and tested in laboratories. I don't know of anyone doing tests with dark matter and dark energy. Plasma effects have been demonstrated scalable over 14 orders of magnitude, and Hannes Alfvén hypothesized greater scales. As for the establishment, some widely accepted astrophysical concepts (e.g. neutron stars) violate known physics.

Long before we develop the technology to build a Dyson sphere we will probably know whether or not it is a good idea.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

^
Experiment as in measuring the behaviour of astrophysical plasmas from space probes, preferably clusters of probes to discriminate between spatial and temporal variation. Of course, at the moment and for the foreseeable future, we are limited to plasmas in the solar system. I didn't mention dark matter or dark energy although various experiments are proposed or underway to test various hypotheses regarding the origin of those phenomena.

Do you have a link that describes how neutron stars violate known physics?

ETA: Regarding the current flow/voltage potential across the heliosphere - that sounds like an energy source that a type II civilisation might choose to exploit.

 

[Metryq]

Solitary neutrons decay in about 14 minutes, and neutrons repel each other without protons present, as in the nucleus of an atom. Heavier elements may push the ratio of neutrons : protons to about 1.5 : 1, but such elements are unstable and spontaneously decay ("island of stability," basic nuclear chemistry). Thus, neutronium and neutron stars are impossible.

Neutron stars were invented ad hoc to explain how millisecond pulsars can exist; lesser matter would blow itself apart. Of course the flaw in the original explanation of pulsars is that they "spin like a lighthouse" casting their beams of radio energy at Earth. The Electric Universe alternative is that pulsars are electric oscillators, a very simple circuit.

If naturally occurring nuclear reactors can exist, I'm just credulous enough to believe in oscillating stars.

Yes, heliospheric potential might be tapped as a power source, but at what cost? How much could a civilization safely siphon off before nature rebalances things in some way? (How many probes can we slingshot around Jupiter before the planet de-orbits into the Sun? Rhetorical to the point of absurdity, I know.)

EDIT: I threw in the comment about dark matter and dark energy because you referred to simplifying assumptions. Dark matter and dark energy are modern "epicycles" slapped onto an existing premise in order to "save the phenomenon."

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I agree with your modern epicycles comment about dark matter and dark energy as things currently stand. A modern Kepler is required to take on the established orthodoxy and succeed in establishing a new paradigm without risking career suicide -- a big ask. It might be possible with dark matter and dark energy, about which it's generally agreed that we're pretty much clueless. However, I doubt that TPTB would be willing to upend the existing wobbly tower of astrophysical theories about objects they profess to understand even though the observational evidence was scant when the theories were developed. "We've backed this horse and we're going to flog it to death."

ETA: Why neutrons in nuclei and neutron stars don't decay? The conventional explanation (which I had to look up as my brain is ossified) is they can if it is possible energetically.

Spontaneous processes such as neutron decay require that the final state is lower in energy than the initial state. In (stable) nuclei, this is not the case, because the energy you gain from the neutron decay is lower than the energy it costs you to have an additional proton in the core.
For neutron decay in the nuclei to be energetically favorable, the energy gained by the decay must be larger than the energy cost of adding that proton. This generally happens in neutron-rich isotopes.

[In neutron stars] when the electron/proton (there are equal numbers of each) numbers build up, they become degenerate and the corresponding Fermi-energies increase. At some threshold number density, their Fermi energies will exceed the maximum energy of the particles that can be produced by beta-decaying neutrons. At that point beta decay pretty much stops and an equilibrium is set up between beta decay and inverse beta decay

from http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/9098/how-come-neutrons-in-a-nucleus-dont-decay

 

[Dryson]

Would the Red Spot on Jupiter generate enough plasma that could be harvested for energy production uses?

Long before we develop the technology to build a Dyson sphere we will probably know whether or not it is a good idea.

Definitely not a good idea building a Dyson Sphere around a sun as the materials and time spent would be better suited building a smaller array around a gas giant like Jupiter that provides more local resources for the array than simply electrical power.

A Dryson TEG Array is more economically feasible regarding trade markets, manufacturing and maintenance as well as Jupiter being a way point from which travel to Jupiter from Earth and then into the outer solar system and beyond as well as from beyond into the inner solar system creates a near perfect logistic route for expansion.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The red spot is heating up Jupiter's atmosphere above it by hundreds of degrees (https://www.theguardian.com/science...-spot-turns-up-the-heat-on-planets-atmosphere) so there's Joules in them thar' clouds. However, Jupiter has other energy sources that could potentially be exploited such as the flux tube between Jupiter and Io (https://ase.tufts.edu/cosmos/view_picture.asp?id=1174). However, if it's just energy you're after, it'd be much simpler to mine moons and asteroids to create photovoltaic arrays in space and harvest photons nearer the Sun rather than create a much more complex infrastructure in Jupiter's deep gravity well and hard radiation environment. A more difficult problem is how to store and distribute the energy.

 

[PurpleBuddha]

So basically like the beginning of a Dyson swarm, right?

It makes sense to me that we don't have to judge its cost by the total materials required to surround the star, but rather by how much energy we can get from each panel, and then have more added as needed.

Of course, to me the biggest question about whether mega structures like a Dyson sphere/swarm are economically feasible hinges on how advanced we can get with automation and replication technologies. If we lick that one, then something like this really could be built. I don't know, maybe one day, but I won't be making any predictions.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

In principal, creating a Dyson swarm is certainly technologically feasible. It's more a question of sociological motivation -- why and when would we bother? I suspect a risk-averse civilisation might use the power for advanced VR simulation and hosting uploaded consciousnesses. Why both exploring a potentially dangerous cosmos when you can create and control your own?

 

[Dryson]

The red spot is heating up Jupiter's atmosphere above it by hundreds of degrees (https://www.theguardian.com/science...-spot-turns-up-the-heat-on-planets-atmosphere) so there's Joules in them thar' clouds. However, Jupiter has other energy sources that could potentially be exploited such as the flux tube between Jupiter and Io (https://ase.tufts.edu/cosmos/view_picture.asp?id=1174). However, if it's just energy you're after, it'd be much simpler to mine moons and asteroids to create photovoltaic arrays in space and harvest photons nearer the Sun rather than create a much more complex infrastructure in Jupiter's deep gravity well and hard radiation environment. A more difficult problem is how to store and distribute the energy.

Building any type of energy harvesting array near a sun negates the profit made in the cost of fuel to transport material to and from the sun, build the array and then maintain it. Let alone the damned sun has a super solar flare and the array is all for nothing.

Asbo what I am looking at is not trying to get deep into the gravity well of Jupiter. The Dryson Array would orbit above the top most layer of atmosphere where heat still radiates in enough quantities to be harvested.

Mining moons requires fuel and rechargeable batteries all three that Jupiter has readily available and in abundance compared to any sun.

Joules - The joule (/ˈdʒuːl/), symbol J, is a derived unit of energy in the International System of Units. It is equal to the energy transferred (or work done) to an object when a force of one newton acts on that object in the direction of its motion through a distance of one metre (1 newton metre or N. · m).

The question is could the array band around Jupiter be used to cause electrons to "jump" from the top most clouds to harvest locations on the array's band where the electrons could then be converted into electricity?

A more difficult problem is how to store and distribute the energy. - Batteries and Capacitors of course. Large scale, 300' x 300' capacitors would be built into the array that would store all of the necessary converted electricity needed for the array. Smaller capacitors would be tethered to the array that would be fed into the ring network around Jupiter to provide local mining operations with a source of readily available electrical power. Most of which would become like small towns, each having their own personalities based on who lived and worked near the capacitors.

I would have to envision the same 300'x300' capacitors being used for larger moons orbiting Jupiter as well where smaller capacitor transfer ships would transfer electrical power from the main array to the Moon capacitor that would generate a consistent work flow and necessity of work force.

 

[sojourner]

Asbo what I am looking at is not trying to get deep into the gravity well of Jupiter. The Dryson Array would orbit above the top most layer of atmosphere where heat still radiates in enough quantities to be harvested.

LOL.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

As long as you employ Sean Connery as the sheriff, all will be well.

 

[Dryson]

I am now wondering with all of the metal alloy's present in the ring around Jupiter if way could be found to harvest the electrical current passing between each meteor in the rings. Do the rings around Jupiter generate any amount of static charge?

I found my answer.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2002/08nov_gossamer/

A static charge does exist in the dust grains of the rings. Another method of harvesting electical power from Jupiter that would be tied into the Dryson Array.

One aspect of developing space based colonies is to never put all of your electrical generating resources into one system such as a Dyson Swarm but use all available secondary and tertiary systems as possible to ensure the colonies have redundant sources of electrical power in the event that one should fail.

 

[Warp Core Breach]

As long as you employ Sean Connery as the sheriff, all will be well.

Outland. Nice.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Outland. Nice.

Yesh.

 

[Metryq]

More like Outlandish.