Spoilers Dr. Hugh Culber Despite Yourself Spoilers!

[Feron]

I'm having a hard time believing that the federation has a test for this sorta thing, a test to find if you've been brainwashed, bit doesn't have a policy that requires you to notify your captain if you find someone may have been.

I mean we've already entered into a nerdpicking moment of trying to apply practical real world ideas to a sci fi fantasy show, but it just doesn't strike me as something the federation would overlook

Well, I have no reason to believe that Dr. Culber would not have notified Lorca if Tyler had not killed him so suddenly.

Keep in mind, he has to balance multiple ethical issues. He knows that the second that he reports suspicions that Tyler will be grounded, and so far he has seen no evidence that Tyler posed a danger to anyone. I think that it was perfectly reasonable for a doctor to want to do a few more tests or at least talk to the patient for a few minutes before doing something that he knows will have severe consequences for someone's career, especially since they are currently trapped in another universe.

The patient had come to him seeking help, after all. The initial tests that had been performed did not set off any alarms. From a practical standpoint, if word gets out to the crew that Dr. Culber will run to the captain anytime something looks odd to him then many people will hesitate going to the doctor out of fear that something will happen to them and possibly not get treated in time for a problem.

 

[Nyotarules]

Is there any actual evidence that McCoy was the only doctor on the Enterprise in TOS?

No there was Dr M'Benga, the others were hiding in the toilets cos we never saw those either

 

[bigglesworth]

Is there any actual evidence that McCoy was the only doctor on the Enterprise in TOS?

Actually that's a great question. I believe Kirk introduces McCoy numerous times as his CMO, so I guess that could mean anything... Either it's just McCoy and Chapel or McCoy manages a staff of several doctors, nurses and others in the medical field.

 

[Nyotarules]

Same is true for Picard's Enterprise (over 1,000 Starfleet and civilian personnel) and just Crusher (or Pulaski in S2).

I suppose those other medical staff re Dr Selar and the other unnamed ones were just there for decoration.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I suppose those other medical staff re Dr Selar and the other unnamed ones were just there for decoration.

There was a good thirty minutes where she was the only dr, heck there was a good ten where she and picard were the only crew...

 

[Feron]

I was actually surprised that Discovery has so many doctors on board, considering she only has a crew of 200-something. As I recall, Kirk's Enterprise had 430 crew and just McCoy and they were meant to be exploring the unknown, weeks, if not months, away from any Starbase. Same is true for Picard's Enterprise (over 1,000 Starfleet and civilian personnel) and just Crusher (or Pulaski in S2).

I think most smaller ships in the USN don't even have doctors on board (several corpsman, but no actual doctor).

Maybe Starfleet figured they needed multiple doctors on board because of Discovery's spore drive?

Keep in mind that Discovery is before the others that you mention in the timeline, meaning that the future ships have more advanced medical technology.

The other ships might not need as many doctors because medical advancements have made treating illnesses and injuries much easier in the future.

 

[Nyotarules]

Also bear in mind we never saw the other 400 odd personnel in TOS or the other 990 odd personnel in TNG.

 

[Longinus]

I was actually surprised that Discovery has so many doctors on board, considering she only has a crew of 200-something. As I recall, Kirk's Enterprise had 430 crew and just McCoy and they were meant to be exploring the unknown, weeks, if not months, away from any Starbase. Same is true for Picard's Enterprise (over 1,000 Starfleet and civilian personnel) and just Crusher (or Pulaski in S2).

M'Benga and Selar were already mentioned. On 1701, Helen Noel was also addressed as Doctor, she seemed to be psychiatrist, but that would still make her M.D.

On 1701-D Doctors Balthus, Hacopian, Hill and Martin were also mentioned (some of them also seen.) So that would be three known doctors for 1701 and six for 1701-D. It is perfectly possible that both had more.

 

[nutshell]

Anyone else concerned about the inconsistency of Star Trek medical scanners? Sometimes a routine scan is done and detects some strange anomaly that puts the crew in alert. Sometimes a scan is done (in this case of Tyler), and the frickin’ thing doesn’t even pick up scar tissue around EVERY organ or that his bones have been essentially crushed. Lol! I found no fault with this and recognize it depends on the plot. I just find it amusing.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Anyone else concerned about the inconsistency of Star Trek medical scanners? Sometimes a routine scan is done and detects some strange anomaly that puts the crew in alert. Sometimes a scan is done (in this case of Tyler), and the frickin’ thing doesn’t even pick up scar tissue around EVERY organ or that his bones have been essentially crushed. Lol! I found no fault with this and recognize it depends on the plot. I just find it amusing.

Perhaps the level of damage done to Tyler's body was just too absurd for even the tricorders to detect...I know that's how I kinda feel about it. Somehow, the idea of Voq's brain being transplanted into a human or having his entire mind/soul transferred to a human brain is less ridiculous than the outrageously extensive work done to create Tyler.

 

[alex08060]

The tech is during the TOS timeline so it may not be so advance enough to pick up Voq.

 

[eschaton]

No there was Dr M'Benga, the others were hiding in the toilets cos we never saw those either

To be fair though, TOS (at least until the money ran out in Season 3) was generally pretty good at making sure there were lots of extras and the ship looked bustling. In contrast, Discovery often feels like a ship missing half (or more) of its crew.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

To be fair though, TOS (at least until the money ran out in Season 3) was generally pretty good at making sure there were lots of extras and the ship looked bustling. In contrast, Discovery often feels like a ship missing half (or more) of its crew.

Now that you mention it I always thought voyager did good at lookin busy andnof course ds9 did. But yeah disco looks pretty empty

 

[nutshell]

Perhaps the level of damage done to Tyler's body was just too absurd for even the tricorders to detect...I know that's how I kinda feel about it. Somehow, the idea of Voq's brain being transplanted into a human or having his entire mind/soul transferred to a human brain is less ridiculous than the outrageously extensive work done to create Tyler.

I like the “too absurd” idea. The computer saw all the damage and determined, “Nah - this can’t be right.”

 

[Tricia]

Keep in mind that Discovery is before the others that you mention in the timeline, meaning that the future ships have more advanced medical technology.

The other ships might not need as many doctors because medical advancements have made treating illnesses and injuries much easier in the future.

I kinda like the idea of more doctors on Discovery. I mean maybe some of them were specialists in certain fields. Remember, it was a science vessel before the war broke out.

 

[Succubint]

Any predictions on what happens next for Dr Culber?

My guess is that he is most sincerely dead and won't get a miracle resurrection, but will somehow still exist within the mycelial network "realm". Stamets will start seeing him and be able to talk to and interact with him due to his altered DNA, but no one else will. It might be left ambiguous as to whether he's just hallucinating/emotionally broken due to grief, or is truly seeing him because of his unique connection to the network.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Finally saw the episode, even though I had been spoiled on this development by all the frigging blog headlines caring not a whit for anyone who couldn't see it the second it was released.

I am of the camp that thinks this was a bad move. Yes, in theory, in a perfect world, gay characters shouldn't have plot armour and should be at risk of just as much death and misery as any straight character. But when you've got 50+ years of being completely ignored in this franchise alone, and decades before that of only ever being portrayed as either villains, victims, perverts or pointless, if you're portrayed at all, then the impact of such a plot turn is much greater than its surface level.

STD may not have written this with the deliberate intention of punishing the gay characters purely for being gay. But regardless of their intentions, it looks from the outside exactly like the trope that definitely did have that intention. That a gay executive producer, a gay showrunner, and two gay actors are involved in this makes it worse, not better. There is no way that they were not aware of the trope, and of how hurtful it could be regardless of the intention behind it. But they went ahead and did it anyway.

And as has been said, even if they undo it, then they fall into the other trope of nobody-dies-in-scifi. The good of this move (drama for the one solid romantic couple on the ship) is thoroughly outweighed by the bad of it. It would have been simpler for everyone involved if they just found a different way to tell this story.

.

 

[Feron]

To those upset that it seems like a "kill the gays" trope, I am reminded by comments by Tolkien about writing good stories.

While we personally of course would love to live in a situation where everything is peaceful, prosperous, and tranquil -- those do not make for good stories! To capture the reader or viewers' attention, some bad things have to happen. For people concerned about societally portraying gays in a way that fosters more tolerance and acceptance -- IMHO Discovery is doing things exactly right!

If Stamets and Culber were just shown as a happy gay couple and they never encountered any problems whatsoever, they would most likely just make for a boring part of the story and therefore have little impact upon the viewers. They would become background noise, just a part of the scenery. It wasn't that long ago that these very forums were convinced that Stamets was going to be killed off. While he is definitely not well, I notice that the hysteria over him has seemed to largely disappeared.

So what did the writers do? First Stamets was placed in danger and wound up being a great hero -- everyone watching really cared and was concerned about this gay character. And now with the horrendous attack upon an innocent Dr. Culber, we are all concerned about and talking about him. The writers have made us care about them. They've already stated that Culber is not gone, he will be back. And in the meantime they have made this gay couple one of the subjects that the average viewer will care about the most. I can guarantee that virtually no one who saw Dr. Culber getting attacked had the reaction: "Well, that gay guy got what he deserved!" No, I am positive that even viewers who normally pay little or no attention to such things were horrified and outraged -- it made people who before the show might have been largely apathetic about the subject now sympathetic.

So take a deep breath, relax, and wait for the next chapter. Hopefully, what they have planned will help you re-assess your initial reaction.

 

[DS9Continuing]

There are ways to create drama for gay couples and make people care about them that don't involve killing one of them off. They were doing that perfectly well with Stamets and Culber up to now - professional conflicts over Stamets putting himself in danger, personal issues over one keeping secrets from the other. But then after all that good work, they fell back on the oldest cliche of all. Yes, it may not be intended that way, but it still looks that way.

It's like back in Angel, when Cordelia slept with Connor, who was effectively her own adopted son who from her perspective had been born less than a year earlier. Looking at it long term, it's clear it was part of the season's arc and a hint of what was wrong with Cordelia. We were supposed to be horrified by it. But in the moment, it squicked viewers out to such an extent that many just stopped watching. I have seen people say the same about Culber's death. Is the plot twist really worth pissing your viewers off to such an extent that they give up and go elsewhere?

.

 

[Scout101]

Think you're over-stating the impact of that twist. What percentage of the viewers do you imagine got pissed off to the extent that they gave up on the show? No way to know since I don't think they do ratings for streaming like this, but I'm guessing if they did, you wouldn't notice any difference.

Not everything has to be through the lens of 'because he's gay'. Didn't kill him because he's gay, or make him wear a white outfit, or marginalize him, or whatever. Hell, it's an interracial gay couple if you want to play more cards. Bad/conflicted guy killed the person that was about to out him, his sexuality had nothing to do with it, nor whether he was in a couple or not. "when alone with the guy about to reveal your secret, you kill him" is a pretty standard game plan, happens all the time. They did it on The Last Ship this season as well, and it wasn't because that character was gay.

Can't have it both ways where you get treated like everyone else AND get special treatment. "Because he was gay" wasn't on the list of reasons for the death, he got treated like any other character, and was put in that situation because they thought the viewers CARED about the character and would be shocked/sad/upset by it. Isn't that what the goal is?