Spoilers Dr. Hugh Culber Despite Yourself Spoilers!
- Thread starter Kirk the Jerk
- Start date
Nope, it would be like if they killed a lesser black character that Uhura was dating...
Yes! In an early thread I stated that if we had a poll wanting to know which character we would rather have as a neighbor, I would vote Dr. Culber because he is the friendliest and seems the fairest and most ethical to me. The only caveat I made was if it was a high crime neighborhood I'd want Lorca, because Mr. Pistol under the Pillow would scare off any bad guys.
But they clearly wrote him in a way designed to make us like and care about him and his welfare. In an ensemble of many gruff and dark personalities, he was consistently friendly and professional.
People have waited decades for Star Trek to finally include a regular and positive gay relationship. And for them to achieve that and then kill one half of them off after 10 episodes just feels silly from a meta point of view.
That doesn't mean it's terrible TV.
Imagine they'd killed off Janeway or Sisko after a few episodes, considering their importance to fandom as the first meaningful female captain and black commander and series lead. I'm sure plenty of white guys would've said: "What's wrong with killing them after a few episodes! You want them to be treated like other characters, right?!".
I get what you're saying, and if this were 10 years ago I'd agree with you. However, just because Star Trek is late to this party doesn't mean they need to write gay characters any differently than heterosexual characters, since Star Trek TV hasn't had an openly gay regular character in a relationship before now. Don't handcuff the writers of Discovery because past Star Treks writers didn't broach the subject with their regular characters.
I think gay relationships (just like interracial relationships) are too common on TV and in films today for those characters and their storylines to be treated any differently than characters in a heterosexual realtionship.
TV stopped making interarracial couples a "special thing to have special storylines" a little while ago, and now interracial couples are so common that their storylines no longer NEED to be about the fact that they are interracial. If gay couples and gay characters are also no longer given special treatment by writers, they too will be no longer considered by viewers as anything other than just like any other character/relationship -- which should be the goal.
Last edited:
No, because here the existence of the actual couple is the important thing.
Is it? whole conversation was about how it was important that we had positive and important gay characters. Now the characters don't matter, and the important thing is whether they are getting laid? Why is their relationship status more important than whether the characters exist at all?
Probably my favorite Culber scene in the whole series was when he lets Lorca have it with both barrels. Although I was almost afraid Lorca would kill him after that...
I'm not sure a straight white man is the right person to decide what kind of minority representation is important.
The actress wanted to leave so its possible it could have happened anyway
Indeed. But luckily it didn't.
In the 60's the existence of showing Uhura in a relationship would have been just as important. There is a reason Avery Brooks wanted to show a good relationship between father and son on DS9 and insisted his romantic leads be black female actors.
Too late they produce most tv shows
Because otherwise you end up in the apologist camp we had pre Discovery where you (general you) try to argue there were loads of LGB characters on Trek we just never saw them in relationships so you didn't know! The way you demonstrate sexuality in fiction is to have them either in a relationship, or wanting one, talking about one, etc. Unlike, say, representation of women or visible ethnic minorities, the relationship dynamic is quite key here. Having a same sex relationship on Star Trek treated with respect and presented in a natural, non stereotypical and engaging way is a really big deal for a rigidly heteronormative franchise - it's a shame they decided to undo that so soon, and especially by this means.
One of the two main show-runners who makes those decisions, Aaron Harberts, is openly gay.
The Visitor is seen by many as one of the best DS9 episodes ever, perhaps even one of the best for the whole Star Trek franchise. And it's about Jake Sisko dealing with the loss of his father who's trapped in another dimension for decades. It's about the bonds of love which transcend time and space. It's also about how grief changes you as a person. I think that's the kind of story they may be aiming for with Stamets and Culber. I could be completely wrong, of course. But I find that more compelling than a simple cheat where he's magically resurrected/revived due to spores or a random nurse finding him in the nick of time.
I think having Culber and Stamets in a similar scenario to The Visitor would be awesome and heartbreaking if executed well. Since the writers ran the storyline (whatever it is) past GLAAD first and got their blessing, I am content to trust them & wait and see how the story plays out. It may still turn out to be badly executed and a bad decision over all, but we haven't even yet seen how what happened to Culber will affect the rest of the crew - especially Stamets. It's early days. All we know is that he's not 100% dead, he will be back in some form, and that it seems that the writers want to continue the Stamets/Culber love story in some way, but with a meta-physical or sci fi twist.
Besides, there are countless Trek stories of people being in another dimension or out of phase or temporal synch etc. trying to communicate with regular characters as a plot point. It's never treated like actual ghosts or spirits of the dead. Even the awful Sub Rosa story with Crusher didn't go that far. What makes you think it will be different in this instance? Or, even more importantly, why can't they explore what death is, what it means to us as individuals and a species, is that a verboten topic? Heck they already went deep into the whole God is at the center of the universe thing as a major movie plot-line.
ETA: direct quote from
http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/star-trek-discover-despite-yourself-1202657617/
“So everybody hold on,” Harberts said. “Some really phenomenal stuff is coming, and if you think that the out gay showrunner and his more-than-supportive writing partner and friend of more than 20 years are just going to kill a gay character to be done with a gay character, you’re wrong. And if anybody thinks that you would hire two of the best gay out actors working today in Anthony Rapp and Wilson Cruz and put them on ‘Star Trek’ just to sort of throw them away, you would also be very, very wrong.”
The Visitor is seen by many as one of the best DS9 episodes ever, perhaps even one of the best for the whole Star Trek franchise. And it's about Jake Sisko dealing with the loss of his father who's trapped in another dimension for decades. It's about the bonds of love which transcend time and space. It's also about how grief changes you as a person. I think that's the kind of story they may be aiming for with Stamets and Culber. I could be completely wrong, of course. But I find that more compelling than a simple cheat where he's magically resurrected/revived due to spores or a random nurse finding him in the nick of time.
I think having Culber and Stamets in a similar scenario to The Visitor would be awesome and heartbreaking if executed well. Since the writers ran the storyline (whatever it is) past GLAAD first and got their blessing, I am content to trust them & wait and see how the story plays out. It may still turn out to be badly executed and a bad decision over all, but we haven't even yet seen how what happened to Culber will affect the rest of the crew - especially Stamets. It's early days. All we know is that he's not 100% dead, he will be back in some form, and that it seems that the writers want to continue the Stamets/Culber love story in some way, but with a meta-physical or sci fi twist.
Besides, there are countless Trek stories of people being in another dimension or out of phase or temporal synch etc. trying to communicate with regular characters as a plot point. It's never treated like actual ghosts or spirits of the dead. Even the awful Sub Rosa story with Crusher didn't go that far. What makes you think it will be different in this instance? Or, even more importantly, why can't they explore what death is, what it means to us as individuals and a species, is that a verboten topic? Heck they already went deep into the whole God is at the center of the universe thing as a major movie plot-line.
ETA: direct quote from
http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/star-trek-discover-despite-yourself-1202657617/
“So everybody hold on,” Harberts said. “Some really phenomenal stuff is coming, and if you think that the out gay showrunner and his more-than-supportive writing partner and friend of more than 20 years are just going to kill a gay character to be done with a gay character, you’re wrong. And if anybody thinks that you would hire two of the best gay out actors working today in Anthony Rapp and Wilson Cruz and put them on ‘Star Trek’ just to sort of throw them away, you would also be very, very wrong.”
Last edited:
That, plus it seems that
Culber will not stay dead
So it's not like
the gay relationship will be gone from the show
Last edited:
There's definitely an echo in this thread.
1. The writer's gay
2. They didn't kill him because he's gay
3. They're probably undoing it anyway
Nobody is arguing against any of those points. Doesn't change the point that this is a disappointing example of a 'bury your gays' trope on a show that has only just managed to have any.
The same types of arguments apply to the fact the Discovery seems keen on getting rid of female leaders, and replacing them with men. But I also find that a little disappointing if I'm honest.
People dying on Discovery:
- the female asian captain.
- the female security officer POC.
- the gay POC.
White people seem to be reasonably safe.
Glad they're casting minorities but I wish they weren't mostly used for roles that aren't meant to be permanent.
- the female asian captain.
- the female security officer POC.
- the gay POC.
White people seem to be reasonably safe.
Glad they're casting minorities but I wish they weren't mostly used for roles that aren't meant to be permanent.
Even though Wilson Cruz himself says it isn't?
