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Dr. Gillian Taylor?

I've wondered whether Kirk might have saved her life by taking her aboard the Botany Bay.

It took me a while to figure out you meant the Bounty. I was wondering how she could've ended up on Khan's sleeper ship.


In the original timeline, did Gillian Taylor kill herself? The apparent lack of impact caused by her removal from the timeline makes me wonder.

But TVH is predicated on the assumption that its events are a self-consistent loop. It is the original timeline, just a timeline that includes a causal loop or two, like Scotty giving Nichols transparent aluminum. As with "Assignment: Earth," what happens is what "always" happened.
 
I've wondered whether Kirk might have saved her life by taking her aboard the Botany Bay.

It took me a while to figure out you meant the Bounty. I was wondering how she could've ended up on Khan's sleeper ship.

Scratch that fan fiction!

j/k

In the original timeline, did Gillian Taylor kill herself? The apparent lack of impact caused by her removal from the timeline makes me wonder.
But TVH is predicated on the assumption that its events are a self-consistent loop. It is the original timeline, just a timeline that includes a causal loop or two, like Scotty giving Nichols transparent aluminum. As with "Assignment: Earth," what happens is what "always" happened.[/QUOTE]

Oh.
 
There don't seem to have been any consequences to the timeline when Gillian Taylor travelled three centuries into the future. Her absence after 1986 didn't change things.

Why?

The last anyone in her time saw her, she'd fled the Cetacean Institute in anger and grief when she found out that the two humpback whales she cared for so deeply had been removed the Pacific Ocean to meet an uncertain fate, not giving her even a chance to say goodbye. The last trace of her any investigators would have found would have been her truck parked in the Golden Gate Park, presumably not very far at all from the cold waters of the Pacific Ocean.

In the original timeline, did Gillian Taylor kill herself? The apparent lack of impact caused by her removal from the timeline makes me wonder.
The effect of Gillian Taylor's disappearance on the timeline is the basic thrust of her plotline in "Music of the Spheres." If I remember correctly (though I should caution that it's been a decade since I read the book), the conclusion was that her disappearance in 1986 made no difference because she wasn't significant to history and she would have likely died in the 1989 Bay Area earthquake (the one that disrupted the World Series that year).
 
^Yeah, but only if those fans don't think it through, which is my point. It's a conclusion that could be reached from a superficial reaction to what the film showed, but a few moments' thought should reveal it to be total nonsense. And yet, sadly, a lot of people are content to settle for superficial first impressions and don't make the effort to think.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.

It would appear that at least one of your fellow authors disagrees with you Christopher. This is from the original treatment of the novel that became Probe. It's been released by it's author Margeret Wander Bonanno. It makes it quite clear that, to her at least, Gillian's science vesel is a starship.


"Aboard the soon to be departing science vessel Clarke, Dr. Gillian Taylor was talking for the last time with her staff at the newly-established New Cetacean Institute off Australia's Great Barrier Reef. Once the Clarke left Earth, George and Gracie would be entirely in their care. Gillian hoped to be back before Gracie had her calf, but even if she wasn't, she was confident her two beloved humpbacks couldn't be in better hands.", [Music of the Spheres]
 
That may be although MWB does talk about some strange reasons for Arnold cancelling things. From her notes on the Probe debacle:

A novel by Michael Jan Friedman was almost canceled because a stardate was wrong 


If they were that nitpicky I'd hardly give their reasons much weight.

Nonetheless, it shows that it wasn't only fans who read the line that way.
 
The validity of an idea has nothing to do with how many people buy into it. I think I've adequately explained why it would be completely out of character for Gillian to fly off into space and leave her beloved whales in the hands of people who've never seen a humpback whale in their lives. (For that matter, I doubt the Earth government would've let her even if she'd wanted to. They needed the whales to survive and prosper, since they couldn't be sure the Probe wouldn't come back. And she was the only person qualified to take care of them.)

Given that, as some have said, hearing "ship" in the context of Star Trek makes one automatically think "spaceship," it might be that many viewers misremembered what Gillian said, and imagined they heard her say "spaceship." Back in the day, without modern reference sources, it would've been harder to double-check. So maybe Margaret, like Therin, thought, "Well, it's strange for her to go off into space, but that's what I remember her saying in the movie, so I have to accept it and work with it." But since she actually just said "ship," there's no reason to favor that far more implausible interpretation.
 
Given that the customary use of "ship" in Star Trek is for a spacecraft it's pretty certain that Gillian's ship was of that kind - particularly as she followed that remark up by zinging Kirk - "See ya 'round the galaxy."
 
I agree that it makes the most sense for Gillian to stay with the whales. However, Star Trek isn't always, dare I say it, logical. Perhaps Starfleet wanted her to check out some of the other cetacean lifeforms on other planets and they reassured her that the whales would be taken care of while she was gone. After all, we don't know that ALL whales are extinct, just humpbacks. Perhaps the Probe only spoke humpback and there were still Orcas around. It would be like if the probe showed up speaking ancient Aztec or some other dead language. If you didn't have someone that could speak the language it wouldn't matter.

The Voyage Home premiered on November 26, 1986. The video release was on September 30, 1987. According to her notes "In 1990, I wrote a third Star Trek novel, Music of the Spheres.". So it had been out on VHS for two to three years by that point. She may not have owned it but she could have rented it.
 
Where might one read this "Music of the SPheres" draft that was rejected?

Also: Christopher, I get the point you are trying to make here but I also think you are taking it far, far too seriously. There is definite logic to what you are proposing is the "obvious" interpretation of Gillian's line in the film, however just because it's logical, doesn't make it so.

Universal healthcare for everyone is logical. That doesn't mean there aren't a boatload of politicians currently trying to undo what little progress has been made toward that end.

Yes, it's fiction and yes, in a perfect world, all the loose ends would be tied. And fortunately, this is one that, yes, given the wording, can easily be rectified. But is it really THAT big a deal that people maintain/believe that she went off on a starship?
 
I may be misremembering, but didn't she also say that she was going to a water planet to recruit divers, presumably to work with the whales. Even so, she also said she was doing some catch up learning. Despite her experience with living whales, there would still be vast amounts of biological and technological science that she'd be unaware of. She could easily be using the trip to focus on areas to deal with the whales and return in time for the birth.
 
There don't seem to have been any consequences to the timeline when Gillian Taylor travelled three centuries into the future. Her absence after 1986 didn't change things.

Why?

The last anyone in her time saw her, she'd fled the Cetacean Institute in anger and grief when she found out that the two humpback whales she cared for so deeply had been removed the Pacific Ocean to meet an uncertain fate, not giving her even a chance to say goodbye. The last trace of her any investigators would have found would have been her truck parked in the Golden Gate Park, presumably not very far at all from the cold waters of the Pacific Ocean.

In the original timeline, did Gillian Taylor kill herself? The apparent lack of impact caused by her removal from the timeline makes me wonder.
The effect of Gillian Taylor's disappearance on the timeline is the basic thrust of her plotline in "Music of the Spheres." If I remember correctly (though I should caution that it's been a decade since I read the book), the conclusion was that her disappearance in 1986 made no difference because she wasn't significant to history and she would have likely died in the 1989 Bay Area earthquake (the one that disrupted the World Series that year).

Wow. That's a tidbit I never really considered! I rather liked Gillian Taylor as a character, so it's nice to see things work in her favor!
 
Given that the customary use of "ship" in Star Trek is for a spacecraft it's pretty certain that Gillian's ship was of that kind - particularly as she followed that remark up by zinging Kirk - "See ya 'round the galaxy."

This.

While Christopher is right that it didn't make much sense for her to fly off on a spaceship I think it's exactly what the writers of the movie meant.

They didn't think it through either. They wondered: "Oh, what do we do with her? She just arrived in the "future". Oh hell, yes. Let's put her on a spaceship to show how awesome she integrates." It's the stuff writers do in Star Trek: Put characters on spaceships.

Christopher is trying to fix writer oversights by giving his own interpretation. That's quite a common attitude among obsessive fans but it doesn't mean he knows what the writers meant.

He's trying to find an in-universe explanation for an out-of-universe writer screw-up. There's no doubt in my mind that the writers meant "spaceship" even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 
Given that the customary use of "ship" in Star Trek is for a spacecraft it's pretty certain that Gillian's ship was of that kind - particularly as she followed that remark up by zinging Kirk - "See ya 'round the galaxy."

This.

While Christopher is right that it didn't make much sense for her to fly off on a spaceship I think it's exactly what the writers of the movie meant.

They didn't think it through either. They wondered: "Oh, what do we do with her? She just arrived in the "future". Oh hell, yes. Let's put her on a spaceship to show how awesome she integrates." It's the stuff writers do in Star Trek: Put characters on spaceships.

Christopher is trying to fix writer oversights by giving his own interpretation. That's quite a common attitude among obsessive fans but it doesn't mean he knows what the writers meant.

He's trying to find an in-universe explanation for an out-of-universe writer screw-up. There's no doubt in my mind that the writers meant "spaceship" even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Exactly. Plus, the explanation offered in dialog for her assignment is [http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie4.html]:

GILLIAN: You're going to your ship. I'm going to mine. Science vessel. I've got three hundred years of catch-up learning to do.
KIRK: You mean this is ...goodbye?
GILLIAN: Why does it have to be goodbye?
KIRK: Well, like they say in your century, ...I don't even have your telephone number. ...How will I find you?
GILLIAN: Don't worry. ...I'll find you. (a kiss) See you around the galaxy.
She didn't mention anything with respect to her ship assignment about bringing a new whale into the world at all.

Of course, she doesn't say when she is to report to her science vessel. Perhaps that is after helping to bear a new whale, and she is smartly planning her future not to revolve around a man.

But then again, she is evidently already in uniform.

Maybe the ship will be on mission for the whale birth, and then zip out into the galaxy. Defensible or not, this is what I thought at first viewing.
 
I agree that it makes the most sense for Gillian to stay with the whales. However, Star Trek isn't always, dare I say it, logical. Perhaps Starfleet wanted her to check out some of the other cetacean lifeforms on other planets and they reassured her that the whales would be taken care of while she was gone.

Taken care of by whom??? Gillian Taylor is the only humpback whale expert in the entire galaxy at this point. Like I keep saying, nobody else is qualified. (And yes, there may be other whale species extant, but it's not like they're interchangeable. Each species no doubt has its own distinct requirements.)

Besides, like I said, it would be completely out of character. Gillian's whole arc in the movie was driven by her passionate devotion to the whales. She didn't come to the future to explore space or to hang out with Jim Kirk, she came in order to stay with George and Gracie and take care of them. That was her entire motivation in the film -- why would it suddenly change?



I may be misremembering, but didn't she also say that she was going to a water planet to recruit divers, presumably to work with the whales.

I don't know where you might have heard that. It's certainly not in the film. And it's a strange rationalization, because Earth is a water planet. It's 71 percent water by surface area. There are plenty of expert divers right here.


Even so, she also said she was doing some catch up learning. Despite her experience with living whales, there would still be vast amounts of biological and technological science that she'd be unaware of. She could easily be using the trip to focus on areas to deal with the whales and return in time for the birth.

But why would she have to go into space to do that? Why wouldn't that education be available on Earth itself? Earth is still the home of most of humanity in the Trek universe, the capital of the Federation, the political and cultural center for all of humanity. If Gillian wants to learn about how to live as a human in the 23rd century, how is Earth not the best possible place to get that education?


While Christopher is right that it didn't make much sense for her to fly off on a spaceship I think it's exactly what the writers of the movie meant.

I don't see any reason to assume that. All she said was "science vessel." The word "vessel" applies just as much to a seagoing craft as a spacecraft. It's only the viewers' assumption that it meant a spacecraft. We have no proof it's what the filmmakers intended.

And no, "See you around the galaxy" doesn't count, because it's too figurative. It struck me more as an acknowledgment of Kirk's life as a space traveller than a literal assertion of Gillian's own intentions. In the context of her entire characterization throughout the movie as someone devoted to George and Gracie above all else, I just don't see any character logic whereby she'd suddenly forget all that and go into space.


She didn't mention anything with respect to her ship assignment about bringing a new whale into the world at all.

Why would she need to? We'd just finished watching a whole movie in which her overriding motivation as a character was clearly defined as the desire to care for George and Gracie. Why would she need to state that her personality hasn't abruptly undergone a complete transformation? It should be implicit.



Of course, she doesn't say when she is to report to her science vessel. Perhaps that is after helping to bear a new whale, and she is smartly planning her future not to revolve around a man.

What??? That's a total non sequitur. How would staying on Earth mean her life was revolving around a man? If anything, it's the other way around. If she gave up her whole identity as a marine biologist to follow Kirk into space, that would be writing her as merely an extension of a man. Staying on Earth to care for the whales means staying true to her own motivations, leading her own life independent of what Kirk might have imagined or wanted. And that's completely in character as well. Kirk may have flirted with her somewhat in the film, but it seems to me that he bombed pretty completely, because she was too devoted to her career and her cause to be interested in romance (and perhaps because he was a couple of decades too old for her anyway).


But then again, she is evidently already in uniform.

Huh? She's wearing some kind of 23rd-century outfit, but we don't know it's a uniform. And even if it is, maybe it's the uniform of the ocean vessel she's signed onto. It's not Starfleet, after all, and there's no reason to assume that Earthbound institutions in the 23rd century have universally abandoned the practice of wearing uniforms.
 
Of course, she doesn't say when she is to report to her science vessel. Perhaps that is after helping to bear a new whale, and she is smartly planning her future not to revolve around a man.

What??? That's a total non sequitur. How would staying on Earth mean her life was revolving around a man? If anything, it's the other way around. If she gave up her whole identity as a marine biologist to follow Kirk into space, that would be writing her as merely an extension of a man. Staying on Earth to care for the whales means staying true to her own motivations, leading her own life independent of what Kirk might have imagined or wanted. And that's completely in character as well. Kirk may have flirted with her somewhat in the film, but it seems to me that he bombed pretty completely, because she was too devoted to her career and her cause to be interested in romance (and perhaps because he was a couple of decades too old for her anyway).
Viewing this dialog through a romantic lens is hardly a non sequitur. The line "see you around the galaxy" is precisely the point when Kirk bombs. The subtext of the flirtation is implicit in the exchange, which begins with Kirk still hitting on Gillian and is capped with a smooch.

But then again, she is evidently already in uniform.

Huh? She's wearing some kind of 23rd-century outfit, but we don't know it's a uniform. And even if it is, maybe it's the uniform of the ocean vessel she's signed onto. It's not Starfleet, after all, and there's no reason to assume that Earthbound institutions in the 23rd century have universally abandoned the practice of wearing uniforms.

She points to her insignia when she mentions being assigned to the science vessel. At least that much of what she's wearing is a uniform.
 
Yes, but "uniform" doesn't prove "spaceship." I mean, come on, we live on Earth, and plenty of people around us wear uniforms. We know that's true in real life, so why is it so difficult to consider that it's true in the Trek universe?
 
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