Don't replicators make Garak's tailor business redundant?

[hux]

It is. Though your presentation of this truth lacks qualifiers and sense of scale.

When was the last time you needed to go to a tailor to buy clothing?

You do understand that all clothing is tailored. Even the stuff you buy from a shop. It's part of the cost. Secondly, I don't buy bespoke tailored clothes because they are expensive. If they were free however, I'd get ALL my clothes tailored quite frankly (kinda the point of the discussion)

How many articles of clothing does one have that can be described as having sentimental value? That is usually the minority of ones clothing. One suit? Out of how many suits, shirts, pants, dresses, socks, underwear or whatever else one might have to wear? One suit out of all ones clothing that has sentimental value. This suit will be kept because of this value. Not the value of the clothing.

Sorry but other than wedding attire, I know of no single functioning, non gibberish talking human being who places value on specific items of clothing to the extent that they take them to a tailor to be repaired. You might have a favourite T shirt but who in the history of the world has had their favourite T shirt taken for repair or adjusted. The only people I know who have had their suits repaired are people who had their suits TAILOR MADE! My girlfriend loves fashion and has more clothes than God but she has never once in her existence taken something to be repaired or adjusted other than shoes.

It is like people that keep old chipped tea cups. They could easily get them replaced, but the cup has a sentimental value (a gift from a relative that has since died. A cup shared with a lover. A old cup that has been with the family for ages.) There may be nothing remarkable about the cup. It could be a generic for that year with or without a pattern on it, yet the human mind puts a value on it due to its history. The other half dozen tea cups the person owns might not have that value and be replaced when they get chipped. But that one cup remains for sentimental reasons

Or something mundane. A cigarette lighter. You can get those pretty cheap I guess. Don't have one myself. You can even get the fancy ones pretty easy, most people don't because they don't need it. Sometimes they get a lighter and for whatever reason, the person thinks of it as lucky. Even if it is a disposable one. When it breaks, they take it to be repaired. They could easily just get a new one that does the same thing, or even a better one, but they instead go to get this one fixed because it is their "lucky lighter".

And of all the cups in your cupboard, how many have an emotional value to you. Please tell me more about the emotional value you place on your cups. I'm intrigued to know more about all theses cups you care deeply about.

You're now ridiculously equating non-essential items that you don't need with clothing which is a universal requirement. Clothes are a functional product that most people put little thought into beyond comfort and availability and in a society where they are free even more so. You first attempted to suggest this very thing yourself (hence no need to desire better quality) then laughably switched and suggested that clothing has enormous sentimental value for people and is a profoundly meaningful part of their life and thinking.

It is a human thing. To put an extra value on something for a specific reason. But not everything. That one thing will warrent special treatment. The rest? Normal everyday things that come and go. Disposable goods. The replicator just makes it neater and less wasteful (aside from energy usage).

But you're assuming that all these garments that develop meaning for people are replicated garments. Why can none of them be tailored when you clearly have a propensity to care deeply about your clothing! If people attached that level of sentiment to clothing they would invariably have a tendency to value clothing "before" it acquires any sentimental value. These people clearly have the capacity to place value on their clothing so why are they so unlikely to also place value on the acquisition of a garment.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ithikro,

When you see a politician--Obama, Romeny, Cameron, Putin, ...--or an celebrity--Quinto, perhaps--you are seeing someone who has had their clothes assiduously tailored, down to the shirts. Perhaps the shirts were bought from a department store using the normal three measurements, but they were brought to someone who studied the body of the person in question, a brought in according to that person's physique. Politicians often need a little more room in order to gesture effectively, whereas celebrities need less, emphasizing slimness. Regardless, they never look like their shirts are sacks that are hanging from the shoulders and are bunched in at the waist, which is how most men tend to look. Maybe you want to keep denying the importance of tailoring, but men in power realize the importance of style in cultivating an image of success (even if they pass off the work to a stylist), and I bet you react to their look.

 

[Ithekro]

If what you say is true, there is no need to go the a tailor. Ever.

If you want to have all your clothing tailor made if it is free, that is your business. It sounds rather vain it me. (like politicians, thank you)

Also this sounds like one of those debates in college with someone who enjoys debating just to debate. Picking apart anything for an edge or ignoring details to make a general point. Or debating past each other so they aren't actually debating the same thing. I always hated those kinds of debates because they went nowhere because the one person would go in their weave with constant attacking until the other debater was just tired of talking to them, regardless of if they were right or not nor even on the orignal point of the matter. Where the winner is the one who still wants to talk.

The question was if replicators made Garak's shop redundant. For aquiring clothing, yes. For luxury items or specific comfort needs, no. Why this has gone down the road of "if it is free, why doesn't everyone take it"? That was not the point. That might have been my fault for pointing ou that not everyone will want luxury good even if they are free.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If what you say is true,

There is only one person here consistently projecting his personal experiences onto the entire world.

 

[Ithekro]

Shall I surrender? ( I was referring to hux, I had not seen your comment prior to typing that, the added note of politicians was added later)

 

[Mr. Data]

I've always considered that it would be too difficult for a replicator to make high quality clothes, as well as the cost of replicating something would be higher than buying it.

At least that's my canon.

 

[hux]

If what you say is true, there is no need to go the a tailor. Ever.

If you want to have all your clothing tailor made if it is free, that is your business. It sounds rather vain it me. (like politicians, thank you)

Of course there is. The tailor produces better quality. Why would I reject better quality when I don't have to (no skin off my nose) And if it's free, it no longer becomes a vanity purchase. I'm simply accepting things I need for free just like everyone else is.

Some people tried to suggest that he would be used sparingly by only a few people who occasionally wanted free luxury artisanal goods (but enough to justify having a shop) while most other people aren't that bothered

That's where you lose me. It is too convenient to say that he is not overwhelmed by demand because only a few people want his stuff because everyone else is happy with their lot. That logic fails. It is the same crap we hear from rich people today who would have us believe that poor people are content with what they've got so it's ok that I've just bought my 14th Beach house, I contend that if "some" people want his goods then why can't "lots" of people want them

Also this sounds like one of those debates in college with someone who enjoys debating just to debate. Picking apart anything for an edge or ignoring details to make a general point. Or debating past each other so they aren't actually debating the same thing. I always hated those kinds of debates because they went nowhere because the one person would go in their weave with constant attacking until the other debater was just tired of talking to them, regardless of if they were right or not nor even on the orignal point of the matter. Where the winner is the one who still wants to talk.

That does resemble someone on this thread but I'm not sure it's me

The question was if replicators made Garak's shop redundant. For aquiring clothing, yes. For luxury items or specific comfort needs, no. Why this has gone down the road of "if it is free, why doesn't everyone take it"? That was not the point.

Yes it was. The implications of the question being..."if it's free then Garak would surely have no customers"...It's part of the wider discussion. If "anyone" wanted Garak's clothes then surely "lots" of other people would too (enough for it to be impossible for supply to meet demand) but instead of arguing the logic, people have a tendency to argue from the position that.....money doesn't exist so how can I debate this issue from that starting point. Would it not be simpler just to say.....money does exist and start from there?

For me, there are only two options:

1. There're are countless people in the 24th century who do not get what they want while others do (and we're not just talking about clothes remember). If this is true then surely there would be unrest, inequality, class privilege, discontent, revolution

2. Garak's clothes are very expensive and people pay for them. This either means Federation Citizens cannot have his goods (or countless other goods....presumably because they have bettered themselves) OR Federation citizens have....money....lots and lots of money

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bettered ourselves my arse

 

[T'Girl]

I've always considered that it would be too difficult for a replicator to make high quality clothes, as well as the cost of replicating something would be higher than buying it.

Look at the Bajorian militia uniforms, mostly they look okay, but they're obviously not tailored. Major Kira's uniforms on the other hand does look to be fitted to her. While I doubt that when we first see her that she went to a Cardassian tailor, I do think that she at some point went to a tailor to have her uniforms altered to better fit her lovely figure.

You do understand that all clothing is tailored. Even the stuff you buy from a shop.

No, if you buy a pair of slacks and wear them "as is" the pants are not tailored, but if you have them fitted then they would be tailored.

Tailored means the clothing is either custom made just for you, or existing clothing is altered just for you.

 

[hux]

Tailored means the clothing is either custom made just for you, or existing clothing is altered just for you.

Not so much these days. Ready to wear clothing is tailored to standardised sizes. Made to measure clothing is tailored to appear bespoke

Only "bespoke" tailored clothing meets the traditional criteria you mention.

It's a dying art (unless you're Cardassian)

 

[T'Girl]

Ready to wear clothing is tailored to standardised sizes. Made to measure clothing is tailored to appear bespoke

With respect, you are confusing manufactured clothing, with tailored clothing.

If you mass manufacture clothing for a large group of people who are generally the same size, this is not tailoring. Tailoring is for a specific individual.

Tailors also repair garments.

 

[The Caretaker]

This reminds me of the old argument as to why people would pay for food and drink in Quark's when they could go to the replimat for free. Any how could Starfleet personnel pay for tailoring / food when they don't get paid themselves?

 

[Cromwell]

Any how could Starfleet personnel pay for tailoring / food when they don't get paid themselves?

Well, that does open up a whole can of worms.

My working theory is that Starfleet provides crew assigned to stations courting non-Federation commercial enterprises a package of the local currency.

It's not too much of a stretch to assume at least one of the hundred-plus planets in the Federation produces latinum (and I doubt we'd need much of it).

It's probably not enough to purchase things from Quark's, for example, very regularly but we know that most of the main cast on "Deep Space Nine" gamble for more.

 

[hux]

With respect, you are confusing manufactured clothing, with tailored clothing.

If you mass manufacture clothing for a large group of people who are generally the same size, this is not tailoring. Tailoring is for a specific individual.

Tailors also repair garments.

Sorry but yes it is. Made to measure clothing is tailored (but it is still not considered bespoke)

This reminds me of the old argument as to why people would pay for food and drink in Quark's when they could go to the replimat for free. Any how could Starfleet personnel pay for tailoring / food when they don't get paid themselves?

Simple answer. Because they do get paid

Remember when Kim meets Quark in "caretaker" and tries to flog him some tat just before Paris shows up. Quark manipulates Kim into buying gem stones and asks....."cash or credit"

Quark clearly believes that this Starfleet officer has access to both (If we've bettered ourselves and don't have cash then why would a shrewd business man like Quark, with experience of Federation citizens even waste his time with Kim......as soon as he sees Federation people, he should instantly be thinking....nah, not worth it, they don't have money)

But he doesn't think this

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Remember when Kim meets Quark in "caretaker" and tries to flog him some tat just before Paris shows up. Quark manipulates Kim into buying gem stones and asks....."cash or credit"

Quark clearly believes that this Starfleet officer has access to both (If we've bettered ourselves and don't have cash then why would a shrewd business man like Quark, with experience of Federation citizens even waste his time with Kim......as soon as he sees Federation people, he should instantly be thinking....nah, not worth it, they don't have money)

But he doesn't think this

There are also times when Quark specifically asks for Latinum, suggesting it is a preferred method of payment above whatever the SF members get. I think that there are some transactions that Quark deals with more flexibly than others, and there is a tendency (not sure how often) no to charge the SF officers for replicated beverages.

 

[Ithekro]

Sorry but yes it is. Made to measure clothing is tailored (but it is still not considered bespoke)

Made to measure is not mass produced clothing, that would be ready to wear clothing. That is not tailored.

I think that was the issue I was having the most with this topic. Tailoring is being defined as different things by different people.


Some seem to think eveyone would want Garak's goods if they were free, but they aren't free. Even if they cost no currency, they cost time. And time is money to some people.

Why spend time getting all your clothing tailor made (for weeks on end if you want a lot of clothes) when you have a replicator that can split out ready to wear clothing in minutes?

 

[T'Girl]

... when they could go to the replimat for free.

I do assume that Starfleet personnel pay for food from the replimat. When you order food, that's an verbal agreement to pay for the food you receive, and the funds are transferred from your financial account.

... when they don't get paid themselves?

Beverly had money.

Why spend time getting all your clothing tailor made (for weeks on end if you want a lot of clothes) when you have a replicator that can split out ready to wear clothing in minutes?

If I tell my replicator to produce a size six dress, I would get a generic size six dress but that doesn't mean it would fit me in all my special curves.

The replicators abilities wouldn't extend to being capable of making a custom dress to my exact shape.

Starfleet Officers typically wear a adult onesie with a zipper down the from, it's a single step away from wearing a bag. Deanna's lovely blue dress (given the way it fits) was unlikely to have come from a replicator.

 

[hux]

Some seem to think eveyone would want Garak's goods if they were free, but they aren't free. Even if they cost no currency, they cost time. And time is money to some people.

Not everyone, just a lot (enough to make it so that supply is unable to meet demand) at which point, those with money take precedence (as they always have)

If I tell my replicator to produce a size six dress, I would get a generic size six dress but that doesn't mean it would fit me in all my special curves.

I'm now picturing all your special curves. Thank you

Starfleet Officers typically wear a adult onesie with a zipper down the from, it's a single step away from wearing a bag.

And by the amount of times Picard pulls it down, it clearly doesn't fit very well (I can certainly accept that Starfleet replicate their onesie uniforms but not those other Federation citizens who correctly choose not to dress in their pyjamas)

 

[The Caretaker]

Beverly had money.

Which she replicated on the Enterprise before disembarking for DS9!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If I tell my replicator to produce a size six dress, I would get a generic size six dress but that doesn't mean it would fit me in all my special curves.

I'm now picturing all your special curves. Thank you

Starfleet Officers typically wear a adult onesie with a zipper down the from, it's a single step away from wearing a bag.

And by the amount of times Picard pulls it down, it clearly doesn't fit very well (I can certainly accept that Starfleet replicate their onesie uniforms but not those other Federation citizens who correctly choose not to dress in their pyjamas)

No where is it said that even when using a replicator, expertise and artistry don't matter. Quarktajino, anyone?

 

[IrishNero]

Perhaps we're confusing the term monetization with compensation. One does not always receive compensation for services performed in terms of currency. Before the establishment of currency, there was a crude but effective system of bartering. Perhaps they get a home and land after so many years of service on a starship.

I don't think there would be any incentive to work if there were no compensation of any sort. Why would anyone risk service aboard a starship that is seeing several hostile encounters every year? What would be the incentive of working to obtain rank? Would anyone want to live out their lives in space without retirement, a family or any possessions? I don't buy the 'working for the greater good of all' Such altruistic notions are good on paper, but the results of such societies overall have not been good. I try not to think about these things but they're been minor annoyances for me over the years. The idea of persons working year after year in risky assignments for no remuneration seems implausible to me. I have resolved n my mind that there was always some sort of compensation that wasn't mentioned on the shows.