Don't replicators make Garak's tailor business redundant?

[Bad Thoughts]

A man of means knows that even when you buy a shirt off the rack, you bring it to a tailor, who will bring in the sides so that it fits perfectly. Sizes don't encompass the entire range of types of physiques, and an outside eye is critical to getting the proportions just right. Perhaps you don't care to achieve that look, but style is generally considered an indication to one's attention to detail.

None of which I have particular use for.

Which is why your opinions have more closely reflect just you.

DS9 did like to handwave the existence of replicators in episodes involving commerce.

Like, could replicators really not produce self sealing stem bolts?

I never got a good self-sealing stem bold out of my replicator. But like I suggested before, we seldom see the garden variety replicator do more than produce a passable curry or a bitter coffee. It suggests that it is better for serving daily needs rather than wants and desires.

 

[hux]

DS9 did like to handwave the existence of replicators in episodes involving commerce.

Like, could replicators really not produce self sealing stem bolts?

DS9 deserves a lot of credit for looking at the established world of Trek with a little more of a cynical eye. Eddington was the most obvious example but for me personally, Quark's speech about their bellies being full was the one that I enjoyed the most

http://youtu.be/-D2SHNqkjbY

 

[Cromwell]

DS9 deserves a lot of credit for looking at the established world of Trek with a little more of a cynical eye. Eddington was the most obvious example but for me personally, Quark's speech about taking away their meals was the one that impressed me the most

At risk of sliding off-topic (though I didn't particularly care for those examples), I have to agree with you.

I know it's a contentious issue, but I felt the introduction of Section 31 was another good move. It closes something of a plot whole, when you consider how seemingly open and democratic the Federation is but add on the fact that multiple hostile powers (Romulans and Cardassians, most notably) have highly sophisticated deep-cover intelligence services.

There's also "The Game" and "Conspiracy" to consider.

 

[tafkats]

But again, you do want a phone! You are willing to pay for the apps, accessories, surplus etc. The question is why do you not want one that is better and free. Saying you don't want a phone because you already have one is contradictory. Clearly by having one, you do want one. So when offered a slightly newer, better one for no cost beyond what you are already willing to pay (including the cost of apps etc) what is your motivation for rejecting it? Perhaps if you didn't ever have or want a phone that would make sense but if you did, then it simply doesn't. Even if you didn't want it you could sell it or give it to a friend. There is no obligation on you to do anything beyond accept it.

It. Is. Free

Yes some might reject it but most simply would not. To argue otherwise is ludicrous and frankly staggering. Yet the utopia defenders keep trying this argument.......In the future people won't want things even though other people have them. Yeah, that admiral lives in a beautiful house on the beach and wears beautiful Garak clothes but I'm happy to live here in the city wearing my replicated rubbish because....well because I just conveniently am

I can think of plenty of real-life instances where I turn down the opportunity to get something for free.

If there's a tray of free samples at the grocery store, I'm probably not going to take any if (a) I'm not hungry, (b) it's not something I like, or (c) I already know what the thing they're handing out tastes like.

If I'm at an event and somebody's handing out free keychains, I'm not going to take one, because I have no use for something that will just make my keys bulkier. Or free tote bags, or free drink holders, or anything else I don't need that will just clutter up my house.

My local radio station has plenty of call-in contests where you can win things that, in plenty of cases, are things I would be able to use. And they're not hard to win -- you usually just have to be the fourth or fifth caller, so if you were dedicated enough, you could win free stuff pretty regularly. I never bother, because it's not worth the effort to me. (And going to a tailor instead of just punching your size into a replicator terminal does come with a cost -- your time.)

 

[Ithekro]

A tailor measures you and then making or alter the clothing which takes time. If you know your size and don't particular care about looking like you have a tailored suit, or have a higher toleratence to thread count and materials then you use a replicator to make your outfit or uniform and be done with it. Just because it is free doesn't mean it is free. Nor does it mean everyone wants it.

Some people like to keep things simple, as that is one less thing to worry about in life. Style for the sake of style would hark of vanity.

 

[hux]

I can think of plenty of real-life instances where I turn down the opportunity to get something for free.

If there's a tray of free samples at the grocery store, I'm probably not going to take any if (a) I'm not hungry, (b) it's not something I like, or (c) I already know what the thing they're handing out tastes like.

If I'm at an event and somebody's handing out free keychains, I'm not going to take one, because I have no use for something that will just make my keys bulkier. Or free tote bags, or free drink holders, or anything else I don't need that will just clutter up my house.

My local radio station has plenty of call-in contests where you can win things that, in plenty of cases, are things I would be able to use. And they're not hard to win -- you usually just have to be the fourth or fifth caller, so if you were dedicated enough, you could win free stuff pretty regularly. I never bother, because it's not worth the effort to me. (And going to a tailor instead of just punching your size into a replicator terminal does come with a cost -- your time.)

? First you give me examples of "things you don't want" then you give me an example of something that isn't worth the "effort"

The whole point of clothes is....

1. You "do" want them
2. Having them tailored by Garak requires no more effort than having them replicated

So if you do want something and having it requires no effort whatsoever then why would you actively choose to reject it?

A tailor measures you and then making or alter the clothing which takes time.

You're not running around naked, in desperate need of clothing. You have plenty of clothes but one day you decide "I'd like a new shirt" so you can replicate a crap one or drop off an order with Garak for an extremely nice one. Time is no issue at all

Sure lots of people might just choose to replicate but LOTS of people would go to Garak. So many in fact, that not all of them could possibly be satisfied. So again, you either have lots of very unhappy people wondering why the hell they didn't get a Garak shirt while others did OR.....you get what you pay for

 

[Bad Thoughts]

So again, you either have lots of very unhappy people wondering why the hell they didn't get a Garak shirt while others did OR.....you get what you pay for

Does this explain why O'Brien's casual look is so drab?

 

[Timo]

if you do want something and having it requires no effort whatsoever

I just can't wrap my brain around why this would apply. The very existence of a shop or other such physical location creates effort where there is none in the default case of having everything at home, within reach from your comfy chair. The discrepancy is massive for a person used to the fact that he doesn't need to leave that comfy chair, like, ever.

Worse still, if there's a salesperson involved, another chasm emerges, that between this total stranger and the machine you have already configured to your most detailed personal specs.

No, the mystery here isn't why everybody in the universe doesn't go to Garak's. The mystery lies in why anybody would ever get up from that comfy chair. (Of course, that doesn't apply in this specific case, because the individuals aboard DS9 are either lunatics who agree to working for Starfleet or other interstellar organizations, or Bajorans who don't know better. But it ought to apply elsewhere.)

Could a replicator reproduce programming code that it "knew" nothing about? Can it scan programming?

Inevitably, yes.

After all, the programming is in there, physically built into the original phone the replicator is asked to duplicate. If it weren't there physically, it wouldn't exist, and the original phone wouldn't work.

Sure, it's a subtle sort of physical. But it's not magic. It's all down to where this atom and that electron are located, and how they are moving. And duplicating that is the bread and butter of replication, even literally so.

The same is obviously necessarily true of the human intellect. We just lack the replicators to demonstrate this in practice.

(If there really is some sort of magic involved, we already know the replicator has that covered, too - it could duplicate the functionality of the alien device in DS9 "Rivals", despite everybody agreeing it was nothing short of magical.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[hux]

I just can't wrap my brain around why this would apply. The very existence of a shop or other such physical location creates effort where there is none in the default case of having everything at home, within reach from your comfy chair. The discrepancy is massive for a person used to the fact that he doesn't need to leave that comfy chair, like, ever

That's a different discussion. One entitled....."why does anyone do anything when they don't have to"....A discussion that's been had and will be had again no doubt

As far as Garak's clothes are concerned, you still don't need to leave your chair to access them. Give your measurements to Garak, programme them into the replicator. Same difference. You just eat cake all day and marvel at your continued betterment

 

[Ithekro]

As far as Garak's clothes are concerned, you still don't need to leave your chair to access them. Give your measurements to Garak, programme them into the replicator. Same difference. You just eat cake all day and marvel at your continued betterment

I'm pretty sure that is not how a tailor works, so still no.

Plus in Star Trek you start to get the whole "who am I and when am I" in relation to being on this station with Garak's shop being there. Why would I shop there? --><-- Who trusts the Cardassian? Early on? No way. Later on, maybe. If I actually needed a tailor. Usually I don't need a tailor. I can get clothing without needing one. So why bother? Luxury? Why should I care? If I want a luxury shirt, then I might go, but I don't need everything I own to be a luxury good regardless of if everything is free.

 

[hux]

I'm pretty sure that is not how a tailor works, so still no.

So how does a replicator produce your clothes to fit without taking measurements (if the answer is anything resembling, you simply program them in, then congratulations that's also the reason why Garak doesn't need to personally measure you) whatever your magic box can do, Garak can also do (he also has access to a magic box)

Plus in Star Trek you start to get the whole "who am I and when am I" in relation to being on this station with Garak's shop being there. Why would I shop there? --><-- Who trusts the Cardassian? Early on? No way. Later on, maybe. If I actually needed a tailor. Usually I don't need a tailor. I can get clothing without needing one. So why bother? Luxury? Why should I care? If I want a luxury shirt, then I might go, but I don't need everything I own to be a luxury good regardless of if everything is free.

The discussion clearly goes beyond Garak as a specific tailor. Its about any tailor and any replicator. The question isn't why would you want a shirt from a tailor. The question is why would you actively avoid getting a shirt from a tailor (and so far the only answer form utopia defenders has been.....just cos we all don't want one....which is extremely convenient for the future to say the least)

Lets go crazy and assume that this painfully convenient future doesn't exist. Lets imagine instead that LOTS of people do actually want Garak's shirts

Does everyone get one?

 

[Ithekro]

As an adult, one generally would know their own waist size within one or two numbers and approximate shirt size via trial and error growing up and a lifetime of getting clothing as the older ones wear out. There is generally not a need to go to a tailor to get that done. Therefore you just go a get/buy clothing, replicator or no. No need for a middleman/tailor.


The basic answer is, it is unnecessary to go to a tailor.

 

[hux]

The basic answer is, it is unnecessary to go to a tailor.

Then why do they exist ?

 

[Ithekro]

Altering clothing that does not fit correctly (heming pants). Adjusting old suits that a customer likes and doesn't want to replace with a new suit. Tailoring speciality existing items for people with specific needs (delicate silk padding for one's itchy chest I believe was one example of Garak's work).

People usually go to a tailor to get existing clothes altered, rather than go to get new clothes. At least since the industrial revolution shifted the making of clothing to textile mills and factories.

 

[hux]

Altering clothing that does not fit correctly (heming pants). Adjusting old suits that a customer likes and doesn't want to replace with a new suit. Tailoring speciality existing items for people with specific needs (delicate silk padding for one's itchy chest I believe was one example of Garak's work).

People usually go to a tailor to get existing clothes altered, rather than go to get new clothes. At least since the industrial revolution shifted the making of clothing to textile mills and factories.

So to recap. You replicate your clothes (rather than get them tailored because in the future not everybody wants luxury clothing for some unknown, convenient reason) but if and when they need to be adjusted, altered or repaired, you send them to a tailor (rather than simply replicating more)

 

[Ithekro]

You asked why the tailor would exist. I answered the question.

This is done if they want to keep the clothing they already have. They have changed sizes, the clothing has not. They have sentimental value in the clothing. Favorate jacket, lucky pants, or dress she had on their first date. Then they go to the tailor.

Or if there the clothing from the replicator sizes is slightly off (legs too long) and they either don't want to hem the legs themselves, or know how to adjust that setting on the replicator, then you take it to the tailor.

In most situations, you will not need to go to the tailor. I think the only times I've been to a tailor were to get existing rented clothing resized to fit (band uniform or suit for a wedding). We've hemmed our own pants if needed.

 

[hux]

You asked why the tailor would exist. I answered the question.

This is done if they want to keep the clothing they already have. They have changed sizes, the clothing has not. They have sentimental value in the clothing. Favorate jacket, lucky pants, or dress she had on their first date. Then they go to the tailor.

Or if there the clothing from the replicator sizes is slightly off (legs too long) and they either don't want to hem the legs themselves, or know how to adjust that setting on the replicator, then you take it to the tailor.

In most situations, you will not need to go to the tailor. I think the only times I've been to a tailor were to get existing rented clothing resized to fit (band uniform or suit for a wedding). We've hemmed our own pants if needed.

Yes but the answer is laughable

Hence

From originally arguing that people don't care that much about clothes (and that's why they don't bother with a tailor) you have now switched to suggesting that their clothes are so immensely meaningful to them that they can't bear to part with them.

So they don't care about clothes (hence choosing to replicate them rather than waste time with a tailor) but they also do care about them, so much so that they refuse to replicate new ones preferring instead to have them saved by a tailor

Once again

 

[Ithekro]

All of which is situational.

Most clothing does not have sentimental value. Those that do become special to the individual. At which point they might want to take it to a tailor to prolong the use of said clothing. The rest of their clothing that does not have sentimental value? Replicator.

I do not see what is so difficult about the concept. Unless one looks at things as all or nothing.

And this is to visit a tailor to get existing clothes tailored. This has nothing to do with purchasing clothing from the tailor, which is generally unnecessary even today.

 

[hux]

All of which is situational.

Most clothing does not have sentimental value. Those that do become special to the individual. At which point they might want to take it to a tailor to prolong the use of said clothing. The rest of their clothing that does not have sentimental value? Replicator.

I do not see what is so difficult about the concept. Unless one looks at things as all or nothing.

And this is to visit a tailor to get existing clothes tailored. This has nothing to do with purchasing clothing from the tailor, which is generally unnecessary even today.

This keeps getting better

So most people replicate their clothes (having no real interest in clothes) but their clothing then become so precious and meaningful to them that they require a tailor to repair them.

Yet despite this sudden interest in and attachment to, said clothing, they continue to replicate new ones (rather than have something superior tailor made) even though we have established that they posses this demonstrable and immense sentimentality for their clothing which demands that they save their favourites

So again, one has no interest in clothing (hence no desire for superior clothes) but is simultaneously painfully attached to their clothing and require it to be saved by a tailor

Oh and all this is true despite the fact that (and I quote) "it is unnecessary to go to a tailor"

What! i look forward to your response

 

[Ithekro]

Oh and all this is true despite the fact that (and I quote) "it is unnecessary to go to a tailor"

It is. Though your presentation of this truth lacks qualifiers and sense of scale.

When was the last time you needed to go to a tailor to buy clothing?

How many articles of clothing does one have that can be described as having sentimental value? That is usually the minority of ones clothing. One suit? Out of how many suits, shirts, pants, dresses, socks, underwear or whatever else one might have to wear? One suit out of all ones clothing that has sentimental value. This suit will be kept because of this value. Not the value of the clothing.

It is like people that keep old chipped tea cups. They could easily get them replaced, but the cup has a sentimental value (a gift from a relative that has since died. A cup shared with a lover. A old cup that has been with the family for ages.) There may be nothing remarkable about the cup. It could be a generic for that year with or without a pattern on it, yet the human mind puts a value on it due to its history. The other half dozen tea cups the person owns might not have that value and be replaced when they get chipped. But that one cup remains for sentimental reasons.

Or something mundane. A cigarette lighter. You can get those pretty cheap I guess. Don't have one myself. You can even get the fancy ones pretty easy, most people don't because they don't need it. Sometimes they get a lighter and for whatever reason, the person thinks of it as lucky. Even if it is a disposable one. When it breaks, they take it to be repaired. They could easily just get a new one that does the same thing, or even a better one, but they instead go to get this one fixed because it is their "lucky lighter".

It is a human thing. To put an extra value on something for a specific reason. But not everything. That one thing will warrent special treatment. The rest? Normal everyday things that come and go. Disposable goods. The replicator just makes it neater and less wasteful (aside from energy usage).