Don't know what to think about the Burqa law in France.

[Myasishchev]

. . . Was our Sedition Act of 1918 okay? It locked up anarchists and communists.

But the point is, we don’t do that kind of shit anymore. For all our country’s flaws, Americans can be justifiably proud that we have no prisoners of conscience.

Indeed. I was just trying to use an example from this side of the Atlantic to show why repression of speech is bad, as opposed to another European one. It's helpful that the amendment to the Espionage Act largely locked up reasonably decent folk that the establishment of the time thought were positively demonic, yet virtually all Americans recognize today as at worst wrongheaded jerks.

It's a great example of how a failure to uphold principles of freedom, even for an arguably good reason, can go terribly wrong.

Frankly I don't know where 'support' came from as I described any denier as a sack of shit. Should I have said inbred deranged sack of fucking shit? I support the right of any group to speak freely as long as their words do not pose a clear and present danger to the public.

Stop denying twelve million corpses, monster!

Yes, I'm the big bad evil nazi I guess. Let me go buy some jackboots and run around yelling 'sieg heil.'

It probably won't happen, but I was hoping someone would tell me my number was wrong, then I could yell "Holocaust denier!" again. I see why lurok's so into it: it's actually a lot of fun!

 

[Subcommander R.]

There's no need to be so dramatic.

Oh, that's so sweet from someone who's cited holocaust deniers as defensible case.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Have I made my point about freedom?

 

[scotpens]

Hustler publisher Larry Flynt said it best: “ If the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect all of you.”

Of course, he never denied the Holocaust. Just printed lots of photos of naked women showing everything.

 

[Subcommander R.]

It probably won't happen, but I was hoping someone would tell me my number was wrong, then I could yell "Holocaust denier!" again. I see why lurok's so into it: it's actually a lot of fun!

lol

In that case...

12 million? Nah, it was more like 500,000. Hitler was duped into it by Himmler, then the Jews used it as an excuse to guilt the world into liking them.

*trollface*

 

[lurok]

Have I made my point about freedom?

No. Silly, stupid, pointless and saccharine. (yadda,yadda, yadda - do you not think I know that stupid speech?). Means nothing to me.

The First Amendment is there to protect against people trying to shut down speech "for our own good." Because frankly, as soon as an elite class claims to know what's good for us all, they are a danger.

Don't give a flying frak about first amendment because means nothing to me. Now, if we start debating an INTERNATIONAL CONSTITUTION, that might be something...

 

[Myasishchev]

It probably won't happen, but I was hoping someone would tell me my number was wrong, then I could yell "Holocaust denier!" again. I see why lurok's so into it: it's actually a lot of fun!

lol

In that case...

12 million? Nah, it was more like 500,000. Hitler was duped into it by Himmler, then the Jews used it as an excuse to guilt the world into liking them.

*trollface*

My understanding is that they all went to Madagascar. That's what I was told. Would the NSDAP lie?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well said, Subcommander R.

Who here is denying the Holocaust, or is Birthering, Truthing, or Intelligent Designing all over everybody, or spreading rumors that the Earth is flat?

Not even the people in this thread, supporting the rights of such as these to utter speech from their mouths, are defending their positions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

lurok--You may "not give a flying frak about it," but you still managed to provide us the most perfect demonstration we could ask for as to why we need it. It's to protect us against people who would use power to try and tell us what's best for us little peons.

 

[Subcommander R.]

No. Silly, stupid, pointless and saccharine. (yadda,yadda, yadda - do you not think I know that stupid speech?). Means nothing to me.

It should.

My understanding is that they all went to Madagascar. That's what I was told. Would the NSDAP lie?

Of course not, we all know the communists made it all up. Stalin staged the holocaust and killed 20 million of his own people to make Hitler look bad.

 

[Myasishchev]

But the lackadaisical Slav isn't smart enough to kill that many people so quickly. It was us! USSSS!

I mean, yes, it was the Communists.

NEVER in my life have I seen Holocaust lined up beside creationism, 9/11 conspiracies and moon landings.

Well, Holocaust deniers and September 11th truthers have been pretty closely aligned since roughly September 12th, 2001.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

You know who might be able to satisfy all 4 of those conditions? (I could swear he's said something about the moon landing. If he hasn't, he's thinking it in his head for sure. )

http://punkposse.com/IP/files/poste...pictures_mahmoud_ahmadinejad_shark_lasers.jpg

 

[Myasishchev]

Is he a creationist too? I thought Muslims weren't much into the literal creation scene, but I could be wrong.

Here's a question: to what extent is the passive acceptance of speech restraints by Europeans is not really a difference in culture, but an artifact of and overcompensation for World War II?

 

[Subcommander R.]

You know who might be able to satisfy all 4 of those conditions? (I could swear he's said something about the moon landing. If he hasn't, he's thinking it in his head for sure. )

http://punkposse.com/IP/files/poste...pictures_mahmoud_ahmadinejad_shark_lasers.jpg

Ah yes, the heavyweight champion of batshit regional leaders.

But wait... wait! A challenger appears!

http://loaymudhoon.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/muammar_al-gaddafi_at_the_au_summit5.jpg

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Is he a creationist too? I thought Muslims weren't much into the literal creation scene, but I could be wrong.

Interestingly, Iran nominally does teach evolution in its schools. What that wingnut personally believes...would not surprise me for him to be a creationist. But here's more in case you're interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_creationism

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Is he a creationist too? I thought Muslims weren't much into the literal creation scene, but I could be wrong.

Here's a question: to what extent is the passive acceptance of speech restraints by Europeans is not really a difference in culture, but an artifact of and overcompensation for World War II?

Well, I has trying to steer in that direction with the link I posted above, that no one seemed to notice.

But to be honest "overcompensation" is not a word that I would bandy about, especially since civilization as we know it nearly came to an end and all.

 

[Myasishchev]

Nah, I mean it; it strikes me as overcompensation. The radical strain of anti-Zionism is actually another facet of that--amounting to "look, they do it too," projecting European sins onto Israel (fairly or not). It's probably dying back now, but for all of my life, my impression of Europe, Germans in particular, was a deeply scarred people terrified of their own capacity for evil, and with a history of continental violence and global exploitation to base their fears upon.

But why? People who are largely if not entirely long since dead committed terrible crimes. Though I acknowledge and abhor the crimes of my country, I don't fear a return of Jim Crow or native genocide in America. Why should a European fear a return of Nazism? Is it really that likely?

The achievement of the war is the social shift: the war destroyed Germany and much of the rest of Europe, and with it the legitimacy of racism, fascism, and militarism. While all three persist in Europe, they do so in greatly weakened forms. Well, generally speaking. Those antisemites and antiziganists who make the news every now and again hopefully--and I think truly--do not represent the sentiments of the population at large.

But, this is the key, no law banning swastikas would fix the situation if twenty million Germans actually wanted to wear them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I understand your position, and it is worth debating. However, as I said above, I believe that, when acting according to democratic principles, other societies have the right to establish their own standards for behavior, even if those standards are in contrast to ours, even with respect to some of our most cherished beliefs.

Personally, I don't think it to be very wise for us to presume that our way is the best way for every culture. I think we've done enough cross-cultural meddling in the past decade for the time being. We've got our work cut out for us as is, in order to try to make sure that everything we're responsible for works out for the better.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Nah, I mean it; it strikes me as overcompensation. The radical strain of anti-Zionism is actually another facet of that--amounting to "look, they do it too," projecting European sins onto Israel (fairly or not). It's probably dying back now, but for all of my life, my impression of Europe, Germans in particular, was a deeply scarred people terrified of their own capacity for evil, and with a history of continental violence and global exploitation to base their fears upon.

But why? People who are largely if not entirely long since dead committed terrible crimes. Though I acknowledge and abhor the crimes of my country, I don't fear a return of Jim Crow or native genocide in America. Why should a European fear a return of Nazism? Is it really that likely?

The achievement of the war is the social shift: the war destroyed Germany and much of the rest of Europe, and with it the legitimacy of racism, fascism, and militarism. While all three persist in Europe, they do so in greatly weakened forms. Well, generally speaking. Those antisemites and antiziganists who make the news every now and again hopefully--and I think truly--do not represent the sentiments of the population at large.

But, this is the key, no law banning swastikas would fix the situation if twenty million Germans actually wanted to wear them.

Well said.

But I do want to provide the disclaimer that anti-zionism is not anti-semitism. In terms of strict principles I consider myself an anti-zionist, though I don't believe its practical. As a matter of fact, there are sects of anti-zionist Jews who believe only the messiah has the right to establish a Jewish nation.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

I genuinely can't believe I'm on forum with people who support/advocate/cite holocaust deniers in this day and age.. That's the best examples of European illiberalim that they can come up with?..

...Genuinely saddened, shocking and disturbing...

As a person of principle (sadly lacking in this day and age) unless I read satisfactory response from Rage(whatever) and SubcommanderR on their positions, I shall leave forum.

Wow and I can't believe I am on a forum with someone so pathetically cliche that they went to the "you don't want to outlaw it, so you support it" card right out of the gate. That is not only not an original straw man it is the single knee-jerk strawman of someone who cant argue his position to exit out of a paper sack.

Freedom of speech is rooted in the principle that knowledge. society, and people are ever evolving and changing and the marketplace of ideas needs to be open to address that. I am glad you have such omniscience that you know beforehand which ideas are good and which ideas are bad that you don't need to condescend to engage with anyone who disagrees with you, but us mere mortals shall have to trudge along using our feeble tools of open enquiry and debate.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Unless everybody's Rights are safe, nobody's Rights are safe; the test of a real American is defending the Rights of those you disagree with.

But even in the United States we have people who would suppress freedom of speech or expression-- McCarthyists, for example. That's why the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.