Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another universe!

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

3D Master said:

Guy Gardener said:
Following the cell division theory, then neither is the original

No, both are the original/real ones.

Um. I have already said I don't believe you. Repeating yourself won't help prove your point. You need to find quotation to prove you have a leg to stand on. Do you have a leg to stand on? You will enjoy proving me wrong. Many have. Give it a go!

This should help. But all the script really does is pull into question words like "Duplicate" and "Divergence" although why on earth was Janeway trying to merge the two ships when it would cause the crews to overlap with competing memories and existences including that Kim and Naomi would be melding in with dead, along with all the other injured crew who got fracked by the proton bursts with their healthy counterparts. However the 31st century time cops “integrated” a young and healthy Captain Braxton with another Captain Braxton some 27 years older and quite mad from his arduous exile on 20th century earth. The Human mind is ever so elastic.

Duplicate has a lot of meanings, but the "majority" of them seem to support that it is a synonymy for “copy”. Voyager was copied, but where did all that matter come from to construct all that copied matter?

The phase shift in the DNA should be enough information to establish which crew was more real than the other, when compared to the medical database on Voyager. Of course whether this “shift” is a spanner in the duplication process or a scar from being shoved into a different dimensional level, if it is Harry and Naomi whose DNA matches the rest of the human race, then it’s pretty obvious which Voyager was the master copy and which was the copy. But then it should be pretty obvious that the ship the Viidians attacked was the real ship unless the other ship was submerged subspatially by the creation of the second ship like some one standing on your shoulders while you’re trying to swim?

JANEWAY 2 said:
Quantum theorists at Kent State University ran an experiment in which a single particle of matter was duplicated using a divergence of subspace fields, a spatial scission.

The original experiment at Kent State talked about duplicating a single particle of matter, not splitting matter into two identical and equal copies as good and real as the original, and Janeway said this was exactly the same situation as that. Although what is “Atomic Balance” and what does it have to do with “Quantum Cohesion”? Could that be about the universe collapsing like putting too much weight on top of a building that it collapses like a house of cards? Even after Janeway blew up Voyager, all the matter which comprised her ship and crew still existed, if not just in the some composition so really, how were any of the issues abated about Atomic balance?

Here’s some notes I took while rewatching the episode an hour ago to see if I had a leg to stand on.

Sensor fracking Plasma drift, out of it, subspace turbulence, power down. Proton burst appear to be coming from within the ship. kes disappeared. Kes eating Spatial Rift. Magnetizing the hull. Field collapsing. Hull depolarising. Ghosts over lapping out of phase. Minor spatial fluctuation. No sensors. Phase shift in DNA. Antimatter vanishing in both ships. Quantum level analysis. Divergence field. Every particle of matter seems to have been duplicated. Spatial scission. Can’t duplicate antimatter. Molecular signature out of phase. Quantum cohesion is breaking down. Mutual annihilation. Radically alter the atomic balance of the two Voyagers’. Realign phase displacement. Ship trapped in a spatial flux.

It’s that last one which makes me think wildly. The ship was trapped in a Spatial Flux? Was the hidden Voyager automatically brought up for air into real space when the Voyager more noticeable in realspace (in phase with the rest of the common universe) to the Viidians whacked itself? Or did the Spatial scission create an entire new universe(yeah, we have gone over this, but I’m suggesting it’s possible that all of reality was replicated exactly when Voyager was replicated, but all of reality was not in danger like Voyager was so this is highly unlikely even if it was the eye of the storm.) that was only observable in this sort of nexus the two ships were creating because where ever these two ships were situated in different layers of subspace let occupying the same space time at least one of these ships should have been out of contact with the universe, but both believed they were dominant and in physical unphased contact with reality as they knew it?

The crew was duplicated by the Quicksilver entities. How is that sentence an incorrect use of the word “Duplicate”?

 

[3D Master]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Guy Gardener said:

3D Master said:

Guy Gardener said:
Following the cell division theory, then neither is the original

No, both are the original/real ones.

Um. I have already said I don't believe you. Repeating yourself won't help prove your point. You need to find quotation to prove you have a leg to stand on. Do you have a leg to stand on? You will enjoy proving me wrong. Many have. Give it a go!

It's a simple manner of logic. I didn't bother explaining it, because you'll never get it. It's a fundamental way of looking at particles and integrated patterns of particles. If you want an explanation, I'll try, but I already know you won't get it.

If both are exactly the same at the moment of duplication, if there's no difference, no flaw, no imperfection, then they are the same, and effectively both real. At that point, either are indistinguishable, which means they are the same. You hit that moment, there's no copy, there's just two real ones. The only difference might be a phase shift, but since you can't tell whether the "copy" or the "real" one was the one that got shifted, you still can't tell the "real" one from the "copy".

Duplicate has a lot of meanings, but the "majority" of them seem to support that it is a synonymy for “copy”. Voyager was copied, but where did all that matter come from to construct all that copied matter?

A copy is an imperfect duplicate. The moment you copy something, there's always a flaw, always an imperfecion. With Voyager the two were identical completely, there was no flaw, so you have two that are exactly the same, at which you have two equally real ones.

The phase shift in the DNA should be enough information to establish which crew was more real than the other, when compared to the medical database on Voyager. Of course whether this “shift” is a spanner in the duplication process or a scar from being shoved into a different dimensional level, if it is Harry and Naomi whose DNA matches the rest of the human race, then it’s pretty obvious which Voyager was the master copy and which was the copy. But then it should be pretty obvious that the ship the Viidians attacked was the real ship unless the other ship was submerged subspatially by the creation of the second ship like some one standing on your shoulders while you’re trying to swim?

No.

Tell me how you know that the "copy" got phase shifted and not the "real" one. You don't. So even if there was a phase shift (which there won't be, see below) you still wouldn't know if this is the "real" one or the "copy".

Now to the phase shift: there's none. They could affect things in the universe after the other Voyager got blown up, meaning that the remaining Voyager shifted back into the normal spectrum automatically, and thus no shift is present.

Also Harry Kim and Noami were shifted into the other Voyager, meaning they would have same shift, even if they didn't get the same way as the others.

Finally, there's no shift remains in the human body. Any particle that was shifted gets left behind and replaced with new particles through the metabolism process of eating, drinking, taking usefull materials from it, filtering toxins and other bad materials from blood and organs and pushing them out the other end. By the time they got to the Alpha Quadrant, they'd be made up of entirely different particles, particles that were never shifted, and thus no shift would be seen.

If you want to see a shift, you would only possibly be see it in Voyager itself, but all the things it been through, time travel, shot at, repairs, there's probably nothing detectable left in it either. If there is though, as above, it still won't tell you anything, because you can't determine whether the "original" or the "copy" got shifted.

Which gets back to the original point; if both are indistinguishable from each other on the point of duplication, they are the same, and thus both are real.

The original experiment at Kent State talked about duplicating a single particle of matter, not splitting matter into two identical and equal copies as good and real as the original,

It's the same thing. There's no difference.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

3D Master said:

Guy Gardener said:

3D Master said:

Guy Gardener said:
Following the cell division theory, then neither is the original

No, both are the original/real ones.

Um. I have already said I don't believe you. Repeating yourself won't help prove your point. You need to find quotation to prove you have a leg to stand on. Do you have a leg to stand on? You will enjoy proving me wrong. Many have. Give it a go!

It's a simple manner of logic. I didn't bother explaining it, because you'll never get it. It's a fundamental way of looking at particles and integrated patterns of particles. If you want an explanation, I'll try, but I already know you won't get it.

You hurt my feelings. I need a moment… But now that I know that you’re a fundamentalist in regards to imaginary pretend science, that’s just excellent. …I acknowledge your point of view, I just do not believe in it or believe you can supply the evidence to support it or convince me I am wrong and you are right. All you need to do is find some piece of text from the story that makes a comparison to an amoeba, that both crews are a new life form sprouted from an original, or prove that the composition of the matter, which made the duplicated crew and ship, is from the same place as the original and not supplied by on site building supplies, or that both crews are a mixture or original matter and bolstered matter from the local environment? You haven’t even tried to prove there aren’t a master copy and a copy? You can’t expect people to kowtow to you for no reason. Please present some proof.

3D Master said:

If both are exactly the same at the moment of duplication, if there's no difference, no flaw, no imperfection, then they are the same, and effectively both real.

Well if they were the same that would be fine. But “effectively” is a pretty strong word when these people might have had to have been sharing Christmas presents if things turned out differently. Or Sam has to legally adopt Naomi to guarantee parental rights since there most certainly is a death certificate for the child who did gestate in her all that time and the replacement has no biological connection to her, since the duplication process didn’t diminish the originals in any capacity. You hear about children demanding not to be patronized when parents try to buy a new puppy after a road accident… You’d have to wonder how many other dead and displaced crewmen Janeway thought about replacing with clones or crosstime whatnot from the near 30 vanished on camera. Yes, thats right. Why wasn’t there a replacement Neelix on hand? Or did she make 5 of them and use them all up quicksmart?

3D Master said:At that point, either are indistinguishable, which means they are the same.

Except one is brand-new and one is old. Have you heard the rant about when the more obtuse Christians claim that god made the earth 6000 years ago, but when he did, he created a 5 billion year old earth? And further more, he just hid Dinosaur bones everywhere to test our faith in him because he’s a jester god?

3D Master said: You hit that moment, there's no copy, there's just two real ones.

Sure they’re all real people. Just one lot is considerably older than the others, even though the happenstance created a situation that there appear to be a uniform correlation in birthdays between the master copies and copies.

3D Master said: The only difference might be a phase shift, but since you can't tell whether the "copy" or the "real" one was the one that got shifted, you still can't tell the "real" one from the "copy".

Bingo! However the medical database was copied, so the crew with the phase shifted DNA will know that their composition is radically different from how it is supposed to be. Not quite as easily as if all the crew’s skin had been made green by a flawed duplication process, but the phase shift might have been the result of a flawed duplication process. Prove that it wasn’t?

3D Master said:

Duplicate has a lot of meanings, but the "majority" of them seem to support that it is a synonymy for “copy”. Voyager was copied, but where did all that matter come from to construct all that copied matter?

A copy is an imperfect duplicate. The moment you copy something, there's always a flaw, always an imperfecion. With Voyager the two were identical completely, there was no flaw, so you have two that are exactly the same, at which you have two equally real ones.

There was a flaw. And the notion of a perfect copy is only as reliable as the science you ply up against it. You can make copies of a photography from the same negative. These days you don’t even need a negative. You can make new Photographs straight out of the original rendered image. The magic of science. So one photo made out of another photo, duplicate, the same in every way, well except that it’s composed from different matter. Is it the same picture composed of the same matter created at the same instance, or just terribly alike?

3D Master said:

The phase shift in the DNA should be enough information to establish which crew was more real than the other, when compared to the medical database on Voyager. Of course whether this “shift” is a spanner in the duplication process or a scar from being shoved into a different dimensional level, if it is Harry and Naomi whose DNA matches the rest of the human race, then it’s pretty obvious which Voyager was the master copy and which was the copy. But then it should be pretty obvious that the ship the Viidians attacked was the real ship unless the other ship was submerged subspatially by the creation of the second ship like some one standing on your shoulders while you’re trying to swim?

No.

Tell me how you know that the "copy" got phase shifted and not the "real" one. You don't. So even if there was a phase shift (which there won't be, see below) you still wouldn't know if this is the "real" one or the "copy".

a couple lines above I said:

Of course whether this “shift” is a spanner in the duplication process or a scar from being shoved into a different dimensional level,

I have always maintained that I do not know which ship & crew was the original, and even supplied a possibly reason for why the original crew and not the fake crew would have the DNA phase variance. And that’s exactly what I said above, and you failed to understand my abuse of the English language, so you asked me an incredibly redundant question. .

3D Master said:

Now to the phase shift: there's none. They could affect things in the universe after the other Voyager got blown up, meaning that the remaining Voyager shifted back into the normal spectrum automatically, and thus no shift is present.

This is them talking about Kes asleep in sickbay from the Voyager where Naomi lived.

JANEWAY 2: Let me know as soon as you decide. I've been making a blanket for her. All that's missing is an initial. Get some rest. How's our other patient doing?
EMH 2: She's still unconscious.
KES 2: I ran a microcellular scan. We're almost identical in every way.
JANEWAY 2: Almost?
EMH 2: There's a slight phase-shift in her DNA. Do you have any theory about where she came from?

Kes didn’t normalize or acclimate once she went over to the other ship. Janeway had to rely on technology to make sure she didn’t get fracked from she went to the other Voyager, but that’s more about crossing the dimensional membrane than actual survival. Janeway said that the duplicated matter was fighting to occupy the same point in space-time and it was this over crowding which eventually lead to mutual destruction. When we saw Janeway she the ghost image of the other Janeway, that was probably the ghost Janeways Voyager trying to push the other Voyager into yet another band of subspace. It’s like they were stuck in a doorway pushing from either side to dominate the threshold. But if Kes didn’t lose her DNA phaseshift when she travelled to the other ship, which was so much more in phase with the universe that Vidiians attacked that ship, then why should we believe the rest of her crew reassumed their completely normal human/alien biologies if Kes didn’t?

I tended to assume they properly acclimatized off camera.

3D Master said:

Also Harry Kim and Noami were shifted into the other Voyager, meaning they would have same shift, even if they didn't get the same way as the others.

The point in space-time they were trying to occupy was no longer occupied a second Voyager and it just rushed to fill the vacuum? And what ever damage happened to every scrap of their DNA from being submerged in subspace(if it wasn’t a flaw in the duplication process?) just magically healed itself?

Janeway said b’Elanna said that no more than 5 people could make the trip across without the atomic cohesion of Voyager breaking down. He travelled across the same way as Kes through the rift who did have the phaseshift. So really it’s a question of Harry being “normal” joining a phaseshifted crew. At least compared to their medical database about how a human’s DNA should behave.

3D Master said:

Finally, there's no shift remains in the human body. Any particle that was shifted gets left behind and replaced with new particles through the metabolism process of eating, drinking, taking usefull materials from it, filtering toxins and other bad materials from blood and organs and pushing them out the other end. By the time they got to the Alpha Quadrant, they'd be made up of entirely different particles, particles that were never shifted, and thus no shift would be seen.

I know bugger all about biology, but DNA is the architect of the human body. It tells us how to grow and what to grow, and even makes mistakes like cancer. It’s EVERYWHERE! Are you even aware of how long it takes you to replace every molecule in your body with another? Decades and decades if you don’t die of old age first, especially if your phaseshifted DNA is telling your body to create new phaseshifted meat and bone… if it can? And if it can’t, it would get really pissed off. I think it’s more likely that food and air would be incompatible on some level with a “slightly phaseshifted” individual that a medical procedure by the Doctor would have been quickly necessary because you must imagine if after some time that some noticble fraction of his body was phase shifted and the other wasn’t and… It would hurt?

3D Master said:

If you want to see a shift, you would only possibly be see it in Voyager itself, but all the things it been through, time travel, shot at, repairs, there's probably nothing detectable left in it either. If there is though, as above, it still won't tell you anything, because you can't determine whether the "original" or the "copy" got shifted.

It doesn’t matter if the original or copy got shifted. And the only DNA Voyager has is in it’s bioneural gel packs which would be noticed. However weren’t you paying attention?

TORRES 2: It's a little harder to establish a comm. link than I thought, Captain. The molecular signature of the second Voyager is slightly out of phase with our own. I can't get visual, audio, nothing.
JANEWAY 2: Have you tried remodulating the comm. frequency carrier?
TORRES 2: Five times on forty seven different frequencies.

That was already covered in the story.

3D Master said:

Which gets back to the original point; if both are indistinguishable from each other on the point of duplication, they are the same, and thus both are real.

Real but not the same even if they are indistinguishable. Indistinguishable things become more distinguishable the smarter we get. Just because they couldn’t tell a difference now, doesn’t mean that some one isn’t going to figure out a screening process in the future? Especially since Federation science is probably primarily geared towards finding cloaked Romulan Star Ships and Changeling infiltrators, that spotting frauds isn’t something these guys are good at.

3D Master said:

The original experiment at Kent State talked about duplicating a single particle of matter, not splitting matter into two identical and equal copies as good and real as the original,

It's the same thing. There's no difference.

It’s not the same thing. I had some platonic friends who were incredibly attractive twins (yes, for real.) and they showed me some poetry they had been sent by this guy who was kinda stalking them, as much as 14 year olds who go to the same school can stalk each other (This was a very long time ago.) and according to this poem, these two girls were not only the same person, but that they shared the same perfect soul. They were horrified and disgusted by this I can tell you because they were quite sure that they were different and unique, even though on bad days I got them confused myself sometimes.

Oh, and by “splitting” if I didn’t make myself clear, I did literally mean cutting (hacking?) the original crew in half like an amoeba “divides” which was the initial point of contexture.

But you honestly can’t see a difference from the duplicates being made from the same matter as the originals or being composed from adjusted matter from somewhere alien and fashioned into an exact copy of the crew of Voyager through a magical quantum process? To be constructed from the same matter however would have diminished the original crew or enacted form crossspace tug of war for sole possession of the matter in argument of possession, when in fact what was going n was the opposite, more like a sumo match between jellyfish.

Okay, how about this? How perfectly was the antimatter duplicated?

 

[UssHell]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Question: if they were the exact duplicutes, how is it possible that one Voyager got to the proton burst than the other? Exactly the same, logic would suggest the ships activiating the bursts the exct plack time as the other. However, im debating on werever if its the matter coppied the same, but the timeline's arn't exactly the same or that one Voyager was a copy then the other was a origal.

anyone shed a light on this? ^_^

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Don't forget: Harry Kim and Naomi are from another unive

Well one of the ships was duplicated. For one moment in time everything was exactly the same, but then subtle changes, free will and all that stuff, a trillion tiny things, And considering that the slower Voyager was only probably a minute or two behind firing their photon bursts, maybe onoe B'Elanna wanted an extra diagnostic, or she ordered a coffee, but it's not the greatest degree of divergence between either ship until the photon bursts started hitting.