Dominion War front lines.

[Toxnoxic]

http://www.geekstir.com/img/trekmap2.jpgSo I found this star chart which is a great help for my fanfic, but there's some things that don't make sense to me.

DS9 is right next to Cardassia and Bajor. I thought they were further apart. Also, with the Dominion crossing through the Romlulan Border, that would mean traversing a vast swath of Federation space, with Earth being a closer target than the Romulan Empire.

So this leads me to believe this is an incorrect star chart. I don't have the book, unfortunately, but can anyone clear this up for me? Thanks.

http://www.geekstir.com/img/trekmap2.jpg

 

[Withers]

In establishing where the front lines are one has to establish where things are in general and while there is a consensus on some of them... there is no concrete way of explaining where things are that has any basis in canon and isn't contradicted by something equally as canon. The map you're using is as "accurate" as anything I can think of off the top of my head but, as you pointed out, may inconsistencies and "errors" have been pointed out about it in the past.

-Withers-​

 

[TheGodBen]

It's a 2D map of a 3D galaxy. Cardassia and Bajor could be 1,000 light year away. The Romulans could have a border with the Cardassians "below" the Federation.

Also, all maps are non-canonical, but that one makes more sense than most I've seen.

 

[nx1701g]

It was established in the series that Bajor and Cardassia were only 5 lightyears apart.

 

[neozeks]

It was established in the series that Bajor and Cardassia were only 5 lightyears apart.

Actually, I think that was in the DS9 Technical Manual. But even in the series the trip between Bajor and Cardassia was always shown as short, meaning the distance isn't great either.

As for the charts, as has been pointed, they are constrained by 2D. A lot of problems could be solved if we simply imagine Cardassia being on top of the Federation.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Well, the series mentioned the "Bolian front" and the occupation/liberation of Benzar- and that region is seemingly proximate to the Romulan Neutral Zone, at least as seen here (as everyone says, in 3D it might be quite different).

Plus a raid on Coridan and a siege at Vulcan- plus shipments to and from Beta Rigel under attack- puts another front further rimward, keping the core worlds under attack from at least two "sides".

Of course, given 3D space using these maps isn't too helpful anyway. They're still probably the best maps we have.

 

[Toxnoxic]

True. I'm just trying to get a good idea of where the borders were in the conflict, sort of like you see in WWII battle maps.

 

[Withers]

Why doesn't anybody just make a 3D map? I don't think I've ever even seen an attempt at one. At this point (where I at all graphically inclined- and I am not) I could probably make one with just the stuff I have on my computer without downloading any software. Surely for the gurus of canon who use Mac's this wouldn't be much of a challenge?

-Withers-​

 

[Timo]

The one problem is that even these 2D maps are about 75% guesswork. But at least they are based partially on onscreen evidence, which consists virtually exclusively of 2D maps...

Indeed, there have only been a handful of 3D map graphics in all of Star Trek, and these have usually depicted a very small volume of space: the Dominion sensor array's immediate surroundings in DS9 "Behind the Lines", the spatial anomaly in VOY "One" and so forth. There have barely been multiple stars in such volumes, let alone meaningful groupings of stars. The rotating 3D view of the entire galaxy in VOY "Hunters" is a rare exception, and in turn shows virtually no detail.

Of course, we might argue that the 2D maps we see are actually sections of a 3D reality - and in fact are orthogonal to each other, so that some sections are horizontal, some are vertical in one plane, and others are vertical in another, at right angles to the other vertical plane. With such guesswork we could perhaps build a 3D map that still can claim to be based on onscreen evidence. But it would still not be much more than 25% "factual".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SpyOne]

Space isn't very 3D here: the galaxy is a disc, not a ball, and if the Federation is 1000ly high it fills the whole disc (about 1000ly thick near Earth). So there isn't room for any large powers above or below each other.

There is a star that is canonically within the Romulan Neutral Zone, and it is about 175 lightyears from Earth, so while it might be the long way around, the ability to freely move through Romulan space would give the Dominion the ability to get VERY close to Earth before crossing the Federation border.

And, as others have noted, DS9 is within Bajor's solar system, and Cardassia Prime is very nearby (defined by the Tech Manual as 5.25 lightyears), so yeah, they are very close to each other. Just over a day at Warp 9.2.

 

[Timo]

...it fills the whole disc

The real galaxy has no shortage of star systems, no doubt including habitable ones, even outside the disc proper. Extending an empire around another by going "out of the disk" should not be a big problem there. But the Trek galaxy does have that fancy Galactic Barrier out there, sharply limiting things...

... the ability to freely move through Romulan space would give the Dominion the ability to get VERY close to Earth before crossing the Federation border.

Also note how crossing the RNZ seems to take the Romulan invaders virtually immediately into the Vulcan system in TNG "Unification". So yes, Romulans are probably a huge strategic threat due to their proximity and the resulting lack of warning - and anybody exploiting Romulan space gains that same strategic advantage.

And, as others have noted, DS9 is within Bajor's solar system, and Cardassia Prime is very nearby (defined by the Tech Manual as 5.25 lightyears), so yeah, they are very close to each other. Just over a day at Warp 9.2.

And in the final act of "Tribunal", Odo seems to get there even faster, even though supposedly he only has access to runabouts that are limited to less than warp five... Oh, well. Perhaps he hitched a ride on a Xepolite ship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[neozeks]

Why doesn't anybody just make a 3D map? I don't think I've ever even seen an attempt at one. At this point (where I at all graphically inclined- and I am not) I could probably make one with just the stuff I have on my computer without downloading any software. Surely for the gurus of canon who use Mac's this wouldn't be much of a challenge?

Well, I kind of tried , but it's very rough. Maybe I'll find it and brush it up a little.

Space isn't very 3D here: the galaxy is a disc, not a ball, and if the Federation is 1000ly high it fills the whole disc (about 1000ly thick near Earth). So there isn't room for any large powers above or below each other.

Of course, that's if accept the large Federation of FC. If we instead choose the small Federation (several hundred ly) there's plenty of space. And anyway, it's not like everyone above or bellow Earth will want to become a member of the UFP.

(defined by the Tech Manual as 5.25 lightyears)

Which always struck me as a bit too small. That would practically make them the nearest stars to each other. I'd say it's about 10 ly, but that's me.

Also note how crossing the RNZ seems to take the Romulan invaders virtually immediately into the Vulcan system in TNG "Unification". So yes, Romulans are probably a huge strategic threat due to their proximity and the resulting lack of warning - and anybody exploiting Romulan space gains that same strategic advantage.

Well, that's a given. The Romulan War was fought when the proto-Federation only encompased several close systems. The Romulans couldn't have been too far away from them

 

[indolover]

the Federation of 8000 light years from FC doesn't, and to me never has, made sense.

To travel 1000 light years would take about 1 year. so if we take TNG, which must have visited most regions of the Federation in the series, how could they get back to Earth so quickly when needs be? I think it may mean 8000 cubic light years, rather than linear light years (so to speak). so this figure may be 880 (approximately) light years, which sounds more plausible.

I agree that Romulan space being near to the core Federation worlds is a given, since Earth fought a war with the Romulans before the Federation was formed. The same must be true with the Klingons. Ferengi space cannot be that far away, if we saw them in Enterprise with Archer and co.

 

[Lindley]

The distance between Bajor and Cardassia has to be relatively small, since Ben and Jake got there in a matter of minutes while caught in that "tachyon eddy" in "Explorers".

 

[SpyOne]

...it fills the whole disc

The real galaxy has no shortage of star systems, no doubt including habitable ones, even outside the disc proper. Extending an empire around another by going "out of the disk" should not be a big problem there. But the Trek galaxy does have that fancy Galactic Barrier out there, sharply limiting things...

Yeah, the Galactic Barrier pretty much has to be up or down, and that sharply limits travel.
Which is okay, because the stars beyond the galactic disk tend to be older stars that were formed back when hydrogen was the only thing in the universe. Thus, they are far less likely to have planets.

However, apparently my data is dated: science now believes the galactic disk is thicker than they used to. I've seen a bunch of figures (1000ly, 3000ly, 6000ly), but none expressed the way the old figures I had were: IIRC it was 60% are within 165ly of the galactic plane, and 90% were within 1000ly, and the density drops off significantly beyond that.

 

[Jono]

I actually went to the effort of superimposing the 2D tactical map from Star Charts on the main map a couple of years ago to see how they gelled. Basically scaled the smaller so that Bajor and Cardassian on both maps matched, and they were both pretty much in the same locations in both so the scale is roughly accurate.

Here is the link to the image (very rough work): http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s248/jrofeta/Chart02-1.jpg

It makes an interesting image as it seems the Dominion in attempting to encircle the core Federation worlds and separate them from Klingon support. It also shows how the Dominion fought in Klingon and Romulan space. Pretty but given both are in 2D its meaning is of limited value...plus it is all guesswork where worlds, sectors, starbases, etc are.

As for Bajor and Cardassia, they are around 2 days apart as it took the Fed Alliance fleet 2 days to reach the border in the final ep and from the border (or where the battle ended) to Cardassia seemed not too far away as not much time seemed to pass from withdraw to Cardassia to Fed encircling planet.

 

[Timo]

That's pretty much how it was intended to work, yes. The Federation would be an expansive amoeba - but its defended core would be a tight little sphere sitting between the similar but less extensive sphere-amoeba shapes of its enemies, impenetrable by frontal assault. So the Dominion would go around the sphere, looking for weak spots and chances of cutting strategic connections.

If one superimposes the map seen in "Conspiracy" and later in Keiko's schoolroom onto this foldout in a similar manner, it's supposed to stretch across the foldout, too. To the extreme right of that map, there are some "loose" grid cubes of supposed UFP space, surrounding an empty, non-gridded volume where Romulus is labeled as being located. That's supposed to match the idea that the eggshell of the RNZ (the empty space in Probert's map) is surrounded by areas of UFP space. A similar dent in the grid structure close to the camera should match the antispinward tendrils of Cardassian space, and the dents in grid towards the galactic core suggest unclaimed space or other neighboring empires.

Probert of course originally did the map without much deliberation, sprinkling familiar place names where they best seemed to fit. The star labels on that map don't easily fit the positions of the real stars; one wonders if Probert used the old Star Maps as his starting point, without noticing that Star Maps feature an innocent little coordinate system goof wherein everything is said to be oriented relative to the galactic axis, but is in fact oriented relative to Earth's axis which is almost at straight angles to the galactic one...

The Okudas, however, could use Probert's map as a reference, and when the cartography of the TNG universe gradually unfolded, the Art Department supposedly marked points of interest on a map on the office wall, for further reference - but possibly always minding Probert's stylish artwork. So when "canonical maps" began to appear in the form of DS9 set dressing, they probably were a synthesis of Probert's art and the deliberations of the later Art Department.

Star Charts in turn tries to be a synthesis of that, plus bits of further trivia gleaned from all the series and movies... The foldout was deliberately scaled to work the way it's depicted above, but squeezing the Probert map into the same frame is only possible if one uses a bit of violence.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Matt4511]

It's been some time since I've watched any Dominion War episodes, but it seemed to me that over the run of DS9, "Cardassia" was used interchangable to refer to "the planet Cardassia Prime," "the solar system Cardassia Prime is located inside of," and "the geopolitical entity more formally known as the Cardassian Union."

So even if Cardassia is only a short hop from Bajor, the question remains what definition of Cardassia?

 

[SpyOne]

It's been some time since I've watched any Dominion War episodes, but it seemed to me that over the run of DS9, "Cardassia" was used interchangable to refer to "the planet Cardassia Prime," "the solar system Cardassia Prime is located inside of," and "the geopolitical entity more formally known as the Cardassian Union."

So even if Cardassia is only a short hop from Bajor, the question remains what definition of Cardassia?

All of them, apparently.

I agree the word got used all three ways, but the solar system that contains the planet Cardassia Prime was apparently very close to the solar system that contained Bajor: about a day's travel.

 

[Timo]

It's a bit weird that Sisko and Boone get there so fast in "Tribunal" when a warfleet in supposed hurry spends two days walzing in in "What We Leave Behind" (or at least it sails out during a DS9 morning, and is expected to reach Cardassia "tomorrow night", Cardassian time; that's not necessarily two times 24 or two times 26 hours there).

We could argue that Sisko's "Tribunal" trip took longer than a day, of course; we know the court was in recess during that timespan. But the Archon was already extremely frustrated that the trial had lasted longer than five minutes ("The longest trial in Cardassian history"), so a days-long recess sounds a bit unlikely... A full day might well be possible, of course, if the rest of the afternoon of the first trial day was already fully booked with those five-minute trials. Or several days, for that matter, as I'd expect the court to have quite a backlog of cases and no advance warning that the O'Brien case would be excessively long.

Really, those two episodes seem to be our sole pieces of evidence on how long it takes to get from DS9 to Cardassia Prime. "Second Skin" leaves the issue quite vague vis-á-vis travel by Defiant, while "The Homecoming" is equally vague on runabout travel times.

Timo Saloniemi