Dolphin Crew Members as Show Regulars?

[john titor]

Dolphins are as smart as humans

How do you figure? Dolphins are not even close to human intelligence; no critter is. They don't do anything more impressive than certain dogs can do, and I have no doubt that a chimpanzee could easily outsmart one.

Please explain why dolphins are always getting caught in tuna nets unless steps are taken by humans to protect dolphins from their own stupidity. After thousands of years of humans fishing with nets, why can't dolphins spread the word among themselves that massive fishing boats are best avoided? Yeah, they'd make great tacticians on a spaceship, when they can't even avoid a tuna net.

Many scientists now tend to rank dolphins about the level of elephants in "intelligence" tests and say that dolphins haven't shown any unusual talent with problem solving compared with the other animals classed with very high intelligence.

"What Makes Dolphins So Smart?". The Ultimate Guide: Dolphins. 1999.

And:

Macphail in his "Brain and intelligence in vertebrates" compared data from studies regarding learning set formation of animals. The result show that dolphin is indeed skilled at problem solving but not the most adept and no where as "intelligent" as human.

Species Score %
langur 98
mink 95
ferret 90
bottlenose dolphin 87
rhesus monkey 86
cat 70
rat 60
squirrel 60

MACPHAIL, E. M. Brain and Intelligence in Vertebrates. (Oxford science publications) Oxford University Press, : 1982 433 pp.

How about a ferret crew member?

A major difficulty in comparing the intelligence of man with the dolphins is the fact that we have evolved into two different environments.

On the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.

Probably the biggest and most dolphin research is done by organizations that have no interest in promoting them to the # 2 most intelligent species on earth position. The point may seem subtle, but it has to be said, that if dolphins are found to be truly intelligent, there would be a great deal of controversy in using them in military programs. And the military research is, of course, shrouded in classification and secrecy.

The animus that must naturally develop between these two groups probably leaves many people considering serious scientific dolphin research a little uneasy. Perhaps studying some other animal might seem more appealing in context. And then of course there's the whole physical problem to deal with dolphins spend their lives swimming around in the ocean, we don't.
Whales at first glance don't look very bright. They move slowly. They spend most of their lives just swimming about and feeding. Then again, Einstein spent most of his time staring at the ceiling. You really have to spend time with them or study up on them and their smaller cousins the dolphins to realize how bright they are.

 

[MaximRecoil]

A major difficulty in comparing the intelligence of man with the dolphins is the fact that we have evolved into two different environments.

On the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.

Probably the biggest and most dolphin research is done by organizations that have no interest in promoting them to the # 2 most intelligent species on earth position. The point may seem subtle, but it has to be said, that if dolphins are found to be truly intelligent, there would be a great deal of controversy in using them in military programs. And the military research is, of course, shrouded in classification and secrecy.

The animus that must naturally develop between these two groups probably leaves many people considering serious scientific dolphin research a little uneasy. Perhaps studying some other animal might seem more appealing in context. And then of course there's the whole physical problem to deal with dolphins spend their lives swimming around in the ocean, we don't.

That's a lot of baseless speculation and hand waving. You still haven't explained why we have to protect dolphins and whales from their own stupidity. The simple concept of "avoid boats" is apparently well beyond them. They're not even bright enough to hold a grudge against, or even be wary of humans for slaughtering their kind. They don't even mind being deprived of freedom by said humans; instead they blissfully perform tricks for treats while in captivity, like dogs.

Your hunch that dolphins are as intelligent as humans is completely unsupported by evidence; in fact, the available evidence suggests that they are not even the most intelligent critters out there; to say nothing of being as intelligent as humans.

Whales at first glance don't look very bright. They move slowly. They spend most of their lives just swimming about and feeding. Then again, Einstein spent most of his time staring at the ceiling. You really have to spend time with them or study up on them and their smaller cousins the dolphins to realize how bright they are.

I wonder if Einstein would have been happy to live in captivity performing tricks in exchange for e.g., cheeseburgers?

I wonder if Einstein was capable of recognizing a simple danger, avoiding that danger, and informing other people of that danger?

No one had to spend time with Einstein and form a wild hunch about his level of intelligence; he provided us with plenty of concrete evidence.

 

[Mysterion]

I do not remember that character in Dark Mirror. That book was supposed to be about the mirror universe in the TNG area... yet I found it wholly forgettable. I hope another writer does it properly someday.

While Dark Mirror is not Diane Duane's best, it's not a bad book, IMO. I think her take on the TOs-era of Star Trek is much better than the TNG-era stuff I've seen from her. Thought her take on the mirror universe of the TNG era was at least as interesting as what they did in DS9.

As for the topic: I wouldn't mind seeing dolphin and other non-human characters in Starfleet. The "forehead" aliens ("What? We need another alien this week? Get me a magic-marker...") got a bit tiresome after awhile.

 

[Maurice]

On the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.

When copying someone else's words it's customary to use quotation marks and to cite the source, which, in this case, is Douglas Adams.

Here's the full quote including the bits you edited out (italics mine).

"It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons."
--Douglas Adams
​

 

[john titor]

On the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.

When copying someone else's words it's customary to use quotation marks and to cite the source, which, in this case, is Douglas Adams.

Here's the full quote including the bits you edited out (italics mine).

"It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons."
--Douglas Adams
​

woah! Thanks dude


Anyway Dolphins are just cognitively different from us, they don't care about being captured and are incapable of holding a grudge. You know killer whales are a species of dolphin and have a matriarchal clan culture similar to human ones. Dolphins also have larger brains than ours as evident with large forehead protrusions. Have you ever read of stories where quiet people are written off as dumb when they have phds? Why?? Because they don't exhibit intelligence which extroverted people can understand. To say dolphins aren't natures hidden most intelligent species on earth is disingenuous.

 

[MaximRecoil]

Anyway Dolphins are just cognitively different from us, they don't care about being captured and are incapable of holding a grudge.

You're making stuff up.

You know killer whales are a species of dolphin and have a matriarchal clan culture similar to human ones.

Disregarding your odd choice of words (both "clan" and "culture" apply to people, not critters); what of it? How is it any different (in a way that is relevant to intelligence) than e.g., a wolf pack or a lion pride?

Dolphins also have larger brains than ours as evident with large forehead protrusions.

So does an elephant (larger than a dolphin's brain too). Again, what of it? By the way: "The brain to body mass ratio in dolphins is less than half that of humans: 0.9% versus 2.1%."

Have you ever read of stories where quiet people are written off as dumb when they have phds? Why?? Because they don't exhibit intelligence which extroverted people can understand.

Obviously they would not have a PHD if no one could understand their intelligence.

To say dolphins aren't natures hidden most intelligent species on earth is disingenuous.

To say that they are is simply making stuff up and/or wishful thinking.

 

[Myasishchev]

We're still trying to use dolphins for military applications? Despite the fact that they're unpredictable and not bright enough to comprehend any human tactical situation, hence undermining the one advantage that an indepndent, sapient biological component might bring to the table? :P

But a note--brain size is by no means indicative of intelligence, otherwise I think it's sperm whales that would be the smartest things that ever lived. Neuron number and density might be highly related, however, and afaik humans have that locked up. I think elephants are no. 2, but it might be dolphins.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

I thought Dark Mirror was quite good. I liked the take on an Empire-verse, which I view as having diverged from the Allliance-verse at the time of Kirk's visit.

That said, W'iii worked better in a book than he would on a TV show - avoids the CGI issues quite nicely.

As for how intelligent dolphins really are, I've heard various stories, and it's hard to make straight comparisons when they don't have opposable thumbs.

 

[Maurice]

Let's not make the obvious mistake of equating intelligence with human intelligence only. We evolved in a particular environment which favored certain kinds of intelligence for survival and social bonding. Just because another creature can't solve our puzzles or think tactically or understand cause and effect the way we do doesn't necessarily make them unintelligent, just a different kind of intelligent.

 

[MaximRecoil]

Let's not make the obvious mistake of equating intelligence with human intelligence only.

Why is that a mistake; particularly in the context of this thread? In order for a dolphin to be a crew member on a ship, it would need intelligence at least comparable to that of a human.

Just because another creature can't solve our puzzles or think tactically or understand cause and effect the way we do doesn't necessarily make them unintelligent, just a different kind of intelligent.

That's like saying Danny DeVito isn't short; he's just a different kind of tall. Dolphins are considered intelligent in the animal kingdom; but it is a laughable level (or "kind") of intelligence compared to humans; a comparison which is — as noted above — particularly relevant to this thread.

 

[Maurice]

Let's not make the obvious mistake of equating intelligence with human intelligence only.

Why is that a mistake; particularly in the context of this thread? In order for a dolphin to be a crew member on a ship, it would need intelligence at least comparable to that of a human.

Just because another creature can't solve our puzzles or think tactically or understand cause and effect the way we do doesn't necessarily make them unintelligent, just a different kind of intelligent.

That's like saying Danny DeVito isn't short; he's a different kind of tall. Dolphins are considered intelligent in the animal kingdom; but it is a laughable level (or "kind") of intelligence compared to humans; a comparison which is — as noted above — particularly relevant to this thread.

Because there are different kinds of things. I'm not saying Dolphins are or are not less, equal to, or more intelligent than humans. I'm saying that types of intelligence varies by animal...including the human animals.

As to the other...who says the cetacean ops dolphins are part of the crew per se? That's never postulated on the show.

Your Danny DeVito argument is about as credible as a creationist argument and deserves as much response. i.e. none.

And seriously, on a show where aliens can cross-breed and everyone had an accordion on their forehead and rocks can be intelligent, and where crewman can flipping evolve into other creatures in hours by having their DNA skewed, I find it surprising that anyone thinks there couldn't be super-intelligent dolphins in such a world. That's simulataneously ignoring the show's established lack of plausible science and damning it for not being realistic at the same time. Bravo.

 

[Hneftafl]

The bottom line of this discussion is that the brain mass-to-body mass ratio is currently the best way of assessing relative intelligence among animal species. Currently, humans exhibit, on average, the greatest of this ratio. Therefore, any assessment of cetacean intelligence must be based on direct observation alone, and not on any measure of cetacean brain-to-body mass.

 

[MaximRecoil]

Because there are different kinds of things.

There are also different levels of things; and regardless of the "kind" of intelligence you believe dolphins to possess, it is on a far lower level than human intelligence.

I'm not saying Dolphins are or are not less, equal to, or more intelligent than humans. I'm saying that types of intelligence varies by animal...including the human animals.

They are less, far less.

As to the other...who says the cetacean ops dolphins are part of the crew per se? That's never postulated on the show.

Read the title of this thread.

Your Danny DeVito argument is about as credible as a creationist argument and deserves as much response. i.e. none.

That was random. By the way, it was not an argument, it was an analogy. The analogy was valid. "Credible" has nothing to do with it.

And seriously, on a show where aliens can cross-breed and everyone had an accordion on their forehead and rocks can be intelligent, and where crewman can flipping evolve into other creatures in hours by having their DNA skewed, I find it surprising that anyone thinks there couldn't be super-intelligent dolphins in such a world. That's simulataneously ignoring the show's established lack of plausible science and damning it for not being realistic at the same time. Bravo.

If the dolphins are supposed to be different dolphins than the types we have on earth (e.g., alien dolphins, genetically engineered dolphins, or whatever), then they can be as intelligent as the writers want them to be, without issue. If they are supposed to be ordinary earth dolphins, then having them as crew members is silly (and would be a plot hole).

 

[NIUPonyBoy]

Dolphin's may be smart in the animal world but they are nowhere even close to humans in terms of intelligence.

So Earth Dolphins as 'crew?' Give me a break, dumbest Star Wars-esque idea in a long time.

 

[john titor]

Anyway Dolphins are just cognitively different from us, they don't care about being captured and are incapable of holding a grudge.

You're making stuff up.

You know killer whales are a species of dolphin and have a matriarchal clan culture similar to human ones.

Disregarding your odd choice of words (both "clan" and "culture" apply to people, not critters); what of it? How is it any different (in a way that is relevant to intelligence) than e.g., a wolf pack or a lion pride?



So does an elephant (larger than a dolphin's brain too). Again, what of it? By the way: "The brain to body mass ratio in dolphins is less than half that of humans: 0.9% versus 2.1%."

Have you ever read of stories where quiet people are written off as dumb when they have phds? Why?? Because they don't exhibit intelligence which extroverted people can understand.

Obviously they would not have a PHD if no one could understand their intelligence.

To say dolphins aren't natures hidden most intelligent species on earth is disingenuous.

To say that they are is simply making stuff up and/or wishful thinking.

No I'm hypothesizing and like any mathematician whose had their idea validated in physics I'll be proved right. The fact is dolphins exhibit a culture and seaciety which is comparable to our society, it would indicate that there is much more beneath the surface. In addition dolphins have an equivalent quantity of neural pathways and cerebral folding as humans do. You're just willfully misunderstanding my point about different types of intelligence. Its perceptual. Ergo an autistic savant will appear retarded to one person yet may exhibit intelligence far beyond their comprehension which they are unable to perceive. In conclusion I am not making stuff up, I am thinking outside the box.

 

[The Wormhole]

So Earth Dolphins as 'crew?' Give me a break, dumbest Star Wars-esque idea in a long time.

Exactly how is that "Star Wars-esque"? I sure as hell don't remember any intelligent dolphins in either trilogy. Indeed, aside from Jar Jar and the Gungans, and Admiral Ackbar I don't really remember any intelligent aquatic life in Star Wars.

 

[Pindar]

@DS9Sega on DA's Dolphins.

Well his dolphins did leave the planet en masse

So they are out there somewhere, but I would rather see a Hooloovoo engineer.

 

[FordSVT]

Anyone play echo the dolphin, that was a good game

That's Ecco.

I worked on the 3rd incarnation of the game, released on the Sega Dreamcast.

If you worked on Ecco, then I thank you!

At the time it came out, Ecco on DC was an absolutely beautiful game to look at. Other than the more limited polygon count, even compared to titles today it still holds up because, well, there just aren't that many underwater-based games to compare it to. Finding Nemo is about the only thing I can compare it to. It was also a hard game, and not because it was flawed, it was just hard.

Fuck originality though, where's my GTA5, GT5, FF14, Zelda11, SMB73....?

 

[MaximRecoil]

No I'm hypothesizing [...]

In conclusion I am not making stuff up, I am thinking outside the box.

You are presenting certain claims as facts, and since they are not facts in reality, you are indeed making stuff up.

 

[john titor]

No I'm hypothesizing [...]

In conclusion I am not making stuff up, I am thinking outside the box.

You are presenting certain claims as facts, and since they are not facts in reality, you are indeed making stuff up.

I'm sorry that you cannot appreciate the intuitive nature of my thoughts