Dololittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
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Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
What would that accomplish, though? Demoralizing the Cardassians would not help when they aren't the actual enemy. The Dominion is. And the Cardassians will be all the more eager to ally with the Dominion if the Federation/Klingon alliance presents itself as a direct threat to Cardassia.
Then again, who knows, perhaps our heroes did attempt such a raid. They just didn't figure out that Dominion sensor technology renders cloaks useless. So the mission wasn't much of a success...
Timo Saloniemi
What would that accomplish, though? Demoralizing the Cardassians would not help when they aren't the actual enemy. The Dominion is. And the Cardassians will be all the more eager to ally with the Dominion if the Federation/Klingon alliance presents itself as a direct threat to Cardassia.
Then again, who knows, perhaps our heroes did attempt such a raid. They just didn't figure out that Dominion sensor technology renders cloaks useless. So the mission wasn't much of a success...
Timo Saloniemi
What exactly would this raid entail?
And why would you swat at a hornet's nest?
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
Anyone who's in a ship firing at you is the enemy, militarily (if perhaps not philsophically) speaking.
The Cardassians and the Dominion are both combatants; that's more than enough to justify such a raid. Granted, the Dominion is the primary foe, and is using Cardassia Prime as a staging ground without the universal support of the populace ... but there's obviously a great deal of Cardassian cooperation---cooperation that began almost a year before the war started. Unlikely that many were having a major problem with the Dominion whilst the hungry were fed, industry restored and the Cardassian Fleet brought back up to pre-Klingon War strength.
Was there a resistance or at least an undercurrent of resentment? No doubt there was. That doesn't alter the fact that the Federation was at war with the Dominion ... and that the Cardassian Union had joined the Dominion as a fait accompli. They were not an occupied territory until much later in the war.
Or, alternately, it would begin to drive a wedge between the Cardassians and Dominion, in that the latter promised to protect Cardassia Prime and yet the Federation Alliance has managed to hit and hurt it.
In addition, news of such a strike would bolster Federation and Klingon morale, in that they would see Cardassia and the Dominion were not unassailable.
Of course, that assumes a lack of originality and guile on the part of our heroes. The cloaking device is not the only way to pull a fast one.
Anyone who's in a ship firing at you is the enemy, militarily (if perhaps not philsophically) speaking.
The Cardassians and the Dominion are both combatants; that's more than enough to justify such a raid. Granted, the Dominion is the primary foe, and is using Cardassia Prime as a staging ground without the universal support of the populace ... but there's obviously a great deal of Cardassian cooperation---cooperation that began almost a year before the war started. Unlikely that many were having a major problem with the Dominion whilst the hungry were fed, industry restored and the Cardassian Fleet brought back up to pre-Klingon War strength.
Was there a resistance or at least an undercurrent of resentment? No doubt there was. That doesn't alter the fact that the Federation was at war with the Dominion ... and that the Cardassian Union had joined the Dominion as a fait accompli. They were not an occupied territory until much later in the war.
Or, alternately, it would begin to drive a wedge between the Cardassians and Dominion, in that the latter promised to protect Cardassia Prime and yet the Federation Alliance has managed to hit and hurt it.
In addition, news of such a strike would bolster Federation and Klingon morale, in that they would see Cardassia and the Dominion were not unassailable.
Of course, that assumes a lack of originality and guile on the part of our heroes. The cloaking device is not the only way to pull a fast one.
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
But it's a good idea to minimize the number of your enemies, and this is usually more cheaply achieved by holding your fire than by expending it. The British almost made enemies of the Vichy French by sinking their ships, but cooler heads prevailed. Militarily, those battleships were a dangerous enemy and the Vichy forces a potent foe that had already taken potshots at the British forces and supported Hitler's advances - but it was ill-advised of the Royal Navy to attack anyway.
Generally speaking, intimidation raids have not been successful in the history of modern warfare, not even when the intimidator is vastly more powerful than the victim. The Japanese were miffled with the raids, certainly, but the effect was not one of demoralizing, or of directing Japanese resources from offense to defense. At the very best, it made the Japanese slightly more aggressive and thus possibly precipitated the much-hoped-for Midway confrontation - but both the USN and the IJN hoped for Midway-like decisive battle to begin with, and the prompting from the raid was not decisive regarding the outcome of said battle.
More recently, demoralizing has been attempted in The War Against Terror, but each and every attempt, by either side, has been vastly counterproductive.
Not much chance of that, I'm afraid. There would be recriminations like immediately after Pearl Harbor, but the Dominion could always say "We weren't ready yet; we need closer cooperation to be ready tomorrow". Their deeds would soon speak for themselves.
OTOH, the Cardassians would already know the Feds to be a fearsome enemy and would not be surprised by a surprise strike in the slightest. If Starfleet could strike when the Dominion was there to help, it would surely be an even greater danger if the Dominion left.
I'd still guess (certain excellent pieces of fanfic notwithstanding
) that it would be what the UFP/Klingon axis would try first, considering that they were not aware of the Dominion long range sensor capabilities at that point.
In a greater context, why would the axis bother with a Doolittle raid when they already held the initiative in the war? They had orchestrated the vastly complex, split-second-timed feint where DS9 lured in Dominion forces while Alpha fleets simultaneously struck at Dominion shipyards and other assets; they had been the ones to humiliate the enemy at the first exchange of fire, the ones to pull a Pearl Harbor.
It would be the task of the Dominion to dream up a morale-boosting stunt at that stage of the war. And somehow I don't think they would have had the incentive. Morale would not be an issue for the Jem'Hadar at all, and the Cardassians were not worthy of actual Dominion attention...
Timo Saloniemi
But it's a good idea to minimize the number of your enemies, and this is usually more cheaply achieved by holding your fire than by expending it. The British almost made enemies of the Vichy French by sinking their ships, but cooler heads prevailed. Militarily, those battleships were a dangerous enemy and the Vichy forces a potent foe that had already taken potshots at the British forces and supported Hitler's advances - but it was ill-advised of the Royal Navy to attack anyway.
Generally speaking, intimidation raids have not been successful in the history of modern warfare, not even when the intimidator is vastly more powerful than the victim. The Japanese were miffled with the raids, certainly, but the effect was not one of demoralizing, or of directing Japanese resources from offense to defense. At the very best, it made the Japanese slightly more aggressive and thus possibly precipitated the much-hoped-for Midway confrontation - but both the USN and the IJN hoped for Midway-like decisive battle to begin with, and the prompting from the raid was not decisive regarding the outcome of said battle.
More recently, demoralizing has been attempted in The War Against Terror, but each and every attempt, by either side, has been vastly counterproductive.
Not much chance of that, I'm afraid. There would be recriminations like immediately after Pearl Harbor, but the Dominion could always say "We weren't ready yet; we need closer cooperation to be ready tomorrow". Their deeds would soon speak for themselves.
OTOH, the Cardassians would already know the Feds to be a fearsome enemy and would not be surprised by a surprise strike in the slightest. If Starfleet could strike when the Dominion was there to help, it would surely be an even greater danger if the Dominion left.
I'd still guess (certain excellent pieces of fanfic notwithstanding
) that it would be what the UFP/Klingon axis would try first, considering that they were not aware of the Dominion long range sensor capabilities at that point.In a greater context, why would the axis bother with a Doolittle raid when they already held the initiative in the war? They had orchestrated the vastly complex, split-second-timed feint where DS9 lured in Dominion forces while Alpha fleets simultaneously struck at Dominion shipyards and other assets; they had been the ones to humiliate the enemy at the first exchange of fire, the ones to pull a Pearl Harbor.
It would be the task of the Dominion to dream up a morale-boosting stunt at that stage of the war. And somehow I don't think they would have had the incentive. Morale would not be an issue for the Jem'Hadar at all, and the Cardassians were not worthy of actual Dominion attention...
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
And if the Cardassians weren't already confirmed enemies, your point would have much more validity. We didn't hear anything about protests concerning and problems with the Dominion consolidation of power and authority in Cardassian space. Instead, the Cardassian people, generally speaking, were probably, for at least the first year or so, thrilled with the fact that their territory had been cleansed of Maquis presence and Klingon forces ... that their fleet had been reconstituted ... that they were once again feared in the quadrant.
Again, you're ignoring the psychological boost a successful action of that sort may have. Such a raid, as I've already said, would not have as its goal intimidation, but instead to boost the morale of an attacking force---especially one to whom defeat was becoming commonplace. [See below.]
And if that early attempt failed (and we're agreed that it probably would), it would contribute to a boost in morale, perhaps even hubris, for the Cardassians and Dominion, all while convincing the now-disconsolate Feds that such a strike was essentially impossible---whereas the one described in the aforementioned fanfic would have precisely the opposite effect ... and in addition contribute to the slowly growing disgruntlement with the Dominion.
I see we have a bit of miscommunication here: That fanfic piece to which you referred was presented out of its context in a much larger series; it takes place after the months of "engage" and "retreat" mentioned more than once by O'Brien, only weeks or even days before the attempt to retake Deep Space Nine in "Favor the Bold" and "Sacrifice of Angels"---when it could and would have such an effect.
And if the Cardassians weren't already confirmed enemies, your point would have much more validity. We didn't hear anything about protests concerning and problems with the Dominion consolidation of power and authority in Cardassian space. Instead, the Cardassian people, generally speaking, were probably, for at least the first year or so, thrilled with the fact that their territory had been cleansed of Maquis presence and Klingon forces ... that their fleet had been reconstituted ... that they were once again feared in the quadrant.
Again, you're ignoring the psychological boost a successful action of that sort may have. Such a raid, as I've already said, would not have as its goal intimidation, but instead to boost the morale of an attacking force---especially one to whom defeat was becoming commonplace. [See below.]
Not much chance of that, I'm afraid.
I'd still guess (certain excellent pieces of fanfic notwithstanding
And if that early attempt failed (and we're agreed that it probably would), it would contribute to a boost in morale, perhaps even hubris, for the Cardassians and Dominion, all while convincing the now-disconsolate Feds that such a strike was essentially impossible---whereas the one described in the aforementioned fanfic would have precisely the opposite effect ... and in addition contribute to the slowly growing disgruntlement with the Dominion.
I see we have a bit of miscommunication here: That fanfic piece to which you referred was presented out of its context in a much larger series; it takes place after the months of "engage" and "retreat" mentioned more than once by O'Brien, only weeks or even days before the attempt to retake Deep Space Nine in "Favor the Bold" and "Sacrifice of Angels"---when it could and would have such an effect.
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
Still, why abandon hope? Churchill had guaranteed the security of Poland. He went to war against Hitler over the dictator's invasion of said country. Yet he allied himself with Stalin, his already established blood enemy and battlefield opponent, for the exact same act. The strategic gain was enormous.
It's not as if there had been an exchange of fire between the UFP and the CU specifically during the months of Dominion presence yet. No Cardassian campaign of conquest had been put to action, and indeed the war had been declared by the Federation side - in a manner that hurt the Dominion but did not directly affect the CU. Velvet gloves and special treatment were still an option in the UFP policy towards the CU, and a potentially superior way of driving a wedge. Preferential treatment towards the CU would not only appease the Cardassians, it would anger the Dominion, thus disrupting the alliance...
Oh, the confusion is my doing - I fully understand the story takes place in different circumstances from those I envisioned, from those I thought the original poster envisioned. That is, circumstances analogous to the Doolittle raid, mounted as the first proactive campaign in a war that began with a string of humiliating defeats. The Dominion war wasn't a string of humiliations for the UFP until weeks or months into the fray, and indeed began the exact opposite way.
Timo Saloniemi
Still, why abandon hope? Churchill had guaranteed the security of Poland. He went to war against Hitler over the dictator's invasion of said country. Yet he allied himself with Stalin, his already established blood enemy and battlefield opponent, for the exact same act. The strategic gain was enormous.
It's not as if there had been an exchange of fire between the UFP and the CU specifically during the months of Dominion presence yet. No Cardassian campaign of conquest had been put to action, and indeed the war had been declared by the Federation side - in a manner that hurt the Dominion but did not directly affect the CU. Velvet gloves and special treatment were still an option in the UFP policy towards the CU, and a potentially superior way of driving a wedge. Preferential treatment towards the CU would not only appease the Cardassians, it would anger the Dominion, thus disrupting the alliance...
Oh, the confusion is my doing - I fully understand the story takes place in different circumstances from those I envisioned, from those I thought the original poster envisioned. That is, circumstances analogous to the Doolittle raid, mounted as the first proactive campaign in a war that began with a string of humiliating defeats. The Dominion war wasn't a string of humiliations for the UFP until weeks or months into the fray, and indeed began the exact opposite way.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
If you're saying that the Federation could have handled the prelude to war much differently, well ... I agree wholeheartedly.
On the other hand, once the Dominion was entrenched (by, say, "Call to Arms") neither diplomacy nor kid gloves would have availed them---especially not with Dukat in the seat of power, and the Cardassian military machine restored to its former potency.
I always got the impression that, other than making the Dominion pay a heavy price for the recapture of Terok Nor and the successful raid on the Taurus II shipyards, the Federation/Klingon Alliance had experienced a steady stream of defeats in the first months of the war ... and that these began only days after the promising initial actions. The only canonical evidence we have is O'Brien's litany, and that more than implies that things have been going badly for months already.
Of course, Starfleet could have mined the wormhole once they determined that the Dominion was sending massive amounts of men and materiel through regularly, instead of waiting until their foes had more than enough manpower and ships to wage a successful war against the Alliance.
If you're saying that the Federation could have handled the prelude to war much differently, well ... I agree wholeheartedly.
On the other hand, once the Dominion was entrenched (by, say, "Call to Arms") neither diplomacy nor kid gloves would have availed them---especially not with Dukat in the seat of power, and the Cardassian military machine restored to its former potency.
I always got the impression that, other than making the Dominion pay a heavy price for the recapture of Terok Nor and the successful raid on the Taurus II shipyards, the Federation/Klingon Alliance had experienced a steady stream of defeats in the first months of the war ... and that these began only days after the promising initial actions. The only canonical evidence we have is O'Brien's litany, and that more than implies that things have been going badly for months already.
Of course, Starfleet could have mined the wormhole once they determined that the Dominion was sending massive amounts of men and materiel through regularly, instead of waiting until their foes had more than enough manpower and ships to wage a successful war against the Alliance.
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
I tend to think that Starfleet decided it wasn't up to the task of opposing even the first wave of Dominion ships that came through in "By Inferno's Light". Moreover, I think they were on a rigid schedule overall: Sisko would have had strict instructions not to start a war until Starfleet's escalation program was completed, and that meant letting through several more of those enemy convoys even in the best case.
So Starfleet probably both overestimated and underestimated the enemy at that point, feeling there were too few Alpha vessels to protect a mining operation initially, but thinking that there would be enough eventually to wipe out the Dominion beachhead forces even if they were reinforced by several more convoys.
Or then there was no overestimation. That initial wave did look pretty scary...
Timo Saloniemi
I tend to think that Starfleet decided it wasn't up to the task of opposing even the first wave of Dominion ships that came through in "By Inferno's Light". Moreover, I think they were on a rigid schedule overall: Sisko would have had strict instructions not to start a war until Starfleet's escalation program was completed, and that meant letting through several more of those enemy convoys even in the best case.
So Starfleet probably both overestimated and underestimated the enemy at that point, feeling there were too few Alpha vessels to protect a mining operation initially, but thinking that there would be enough eventually to wipe out the Dominion beachhead forces even if they were reinforced by several more convoys.
Or then there was no overestimation. That initial wave did look pretty scary...
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
I see your points, but ... the whole prelude to war always struck me as way too facile. The writers had determined there was going to be a war, no matter how impractical and downright asinine were the contrivances necessary to make certain that occurred. It's actually one of Deep Space Nine's major weaknesses as a series. Any competent military commander could've stopped the Dominion in their tracks at seven or eight different points along the chain of unlikely events.
I see your points, but ... the whole prelude to war always struck me as way too facile. The writers had determined there was going to be a war, no matter how impractical and downright asinine were the contrivances necessary to make certain that occurred. It's actually one of Deep Space Nine's major weaknesses as a series. Any competent military commander could've stopped the Dominion in their tracks at seven or eight different points along the chain of unlikely events.
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
Technically there was a Doolittle Raid...except the Cardassians/Breen/Dominion carried it out against the Federation by attacking Earth. While not a lot of casualties (except the Breen) it did demoralize the Federation...
Technically there was a Doolittle Raid...except the Cardassians/Breen/Dominion carried it out against the Federation by attacking Earth. While not a lot of casualties (except the Breen) it did demoralize the Federation...
Re: Doolittle Raid on Cardassia Prime
Then again, would stopping the Dominion necessarily be considered a good idea? Prior experience suggested that the Dominion was a superior opponent, so a policy of appeasement might have been seen as the only option.
History is rife with examples, but let's take the Japanese at Manchuria. Chinese armies, even in their then state of disarray, could have crushed the puny Japanese presence immediately after the Mukden incident, a somewhat "wormhole-like" trick used by the Japanese to secure a foothold in China. Yet the higher-echelon commanders knew that the Chinese armies were mostly of poor mobility, while the Japanese could import decisive reinforcements with modern weaponry at a moment's notice. So Manchuria was given up virtually without a shot, in waiting for the day when the Chinese would again be unified and able to oppose the full might of Japan.
Of course, that day never came, and the Japanese eventually pillaged their way through a resisting China in a manner ten times more brutal than their relatively peaceful Manchurian occupation. Yet had the Mukden railroad been a "wormhole" in a more accurately analogous manner - had the Chinese been able to stem the flow of Japanese reinforcements by retaking Manchuria - the Chinese strategy would have made eminent sense...
Surrender at the face of superior force is often a valid survival tactic for countries located far away from their oppressor - and the UFP certainly was far away from Dominion heartlands. Even the (at least by their own opinion) powerful Hitler and Stalin played appeasement games with each other till the very last, both with highly successful results (success here being defined in slightly different timescales for the two conquerors).
A bit risky... The mighty fleets of the Feds, Klingons and Romulans had just been proven to be vulnerable to sabotage by Changeling agents; Alpha quadrant defensive plans had been foiled not once but thrice during the two-parter episode. The guns of DS9 could not be trusted; the allies of the Federation could not be trusted; even the very personnel of Starfleet could not be trusted.
How many admirals would think that an attack on the traitorous Dukat would look far too much like a repeat of the also seemingly sensible Romulan-Cardassian attack on the Founder homeworld? How many would smell a deadly trap, even if it wasn't there?
There would necessarily be a long period of recriminations before any sort of attack could be mounted against Cardassia. And by that time, the Dominion would have fortified its positions there. We'd later see how deadly the planetary defenses of the Trek universe are; attrition of Alpha forces could have been horrendous, at a time when few people could imagine the full scope and brutality of the upcoming war.
Timo Saloniemi
Then again, would stopping the Dominion necessarily be considered a good idea? Prior experience suggested that the Dominion was a superior opponent, so a policy of appeasement might have been seen as the only option.
History is rife with examples, but let's take the Japanese at Manchuria. Chinese armies, even in their then state of disarray, could have crushed the puny Japanese presence immediately after the Mukden incident, a somewhat "wormhole-like" trick used by the Japanese to secure a foothold in China. Yet the higher-echelon commanders knew that the Chinese armies were mostly of poor mobility, while the Japanese could import decisive reinforcements with modern weaponry at a moment's notice. So Manchuria was given up virtually without a shot, in waiting for the day when the Chinese would again be unified and able to oppose the full might of Japan.
Of course, that day never came, and the Japanese eventually pillaged their way through a resisting China in a manner ten times more brutal than their relatively peaceful Manchurian occupation. Yet had the Mukden railroad been a "wormhole" in a more accurately analogous manner - had the Chinese been able to stem the flow of Japanese reinforcements by retaking Manchuria - the Chinese strategy would have made eminent sense...
Surrender at the face of superior force is often a valid survival tactic for countries located far away from their oppressor - and the UFP certainly was far away from Dominion heartlands. Even the (at least by their own opinion) powerful Hitler and Stalin played appeasement games with each other till the very last, both with highly successful results (success here being defined in slightly different timescales for the two conquerors).
A bit risky... The mighty fleets of the Feds, Klingons and Romulans had just been proven to be vulnerable to sabotage by Changeling agents; Alpha quadrant defensive plans had been foiled not once but thrice during the two-parter episode. The guns of DS9 could not be trusted; the allies of the Federation could not be trusted; even the very personnel of Starfleet could not be trusted.
How many admirals would think that an attack on the traitorous Dukat would look far too much like a repeat of the also seemingly sensible Romulan-Cardassian attack on the Founder homeworld? How many would smell a deadly trap, even if it wasn't there?
There would necessarily be a long period of recriminations before any sort of attack could be mounted against Cardassia. And by that time, the Dominion would have fortified its positions there. We'd later see how deadly the planetary defenses of the Trek universe are; attrition of Alpha forces could have been horrendous, at a time when few people could imagine the full scope and brutality of the upcoming war.
Timo Saloniemi
