Dolce and Gabbana say 'Boycott Elton John'

[HIjol]

I'm not yet an expert on John's oeuvre, especially his earlier stuff, but his latest album, The Diving Board, is absolutely wonderful, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it were his best yet. It's a bit funkier than 2006's marvelous The Captain & the Kid, but is also maybe deeper and richer for it.

John is, in short, in collaboration with Bernie Taupin, an international treasure. So, unless he says something genuinely rotten, to all his prejudiced haters, I say: piss the hell off!

I am WITH you, Gaith!!! Let's Ride!

 

[RJDiogenes]

Elton John rocks.

I never heard of D&G. I'm a tee shirt and dungarees kind of guy. But I have no use for bigots, so I'll boycott them in spirit.

 

[jaz'a]

So... they're gay and have a problem with surrogacy? Uh...
ETA: IDIC, I suppose...

I'm gay and don't agree with surrogacy. At all. I don't agree with sperm or egg donorship either. Don't like it for straight couples either so it isn't some anti-gay thing.

Don't agree with gay marriage either for that matter. Mainly because of my view on IVF. Sure we'll still have IVF amongst LGBT couples without marriage but I think it makes it more accessible and acceptable.

The children aren't synthetic, but the methods absolutely are.

No idea what IDIC means??

I have a lot of respect for D&G over this. Their wording wasn't the best but a lot of people in their position, especially if they're gay, wouldn't have the guts to come out with it.

Elton John himself came out in 2012 and said it was heart breaking that his child didn't have a mother. I agree. Pity Elton John didn't think of when he decided to use IVF. He could have adopted. Given a child without a home a great home with two loving parents. Instead he decided to go through a process that intentionally denied his own child one of their parents. I have no respect for someone who does that, especially if they're pushing for it to happen. Children aren't commodities. We shouldn't allow them to be bought.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't agree with using surrogates in poor countries, people who would think it exploitative to buy a kidney off some third world living person don't see paying a women for the use of her womb and health as the same thing. The poor are not body parts for the rich to make use of.

Otherwise, have at it. If there's no exploitation going on (and strict laws and procedures are needed to ensure this) and someone wants to be a surrogate out of the goodness of their heart or a love of being pregnant or whatever so be it.

As to needing two parents, MANY people have only one parent and many people probably wish they had only one parent. Please don't say that there is something less about this. Families aren't about math. 2 is not automatically better than 1. What a child needs is a strong loving parental relationship with one or more people, who raise him/her. The gender of these parents is neither here nor there.

 

[jaz'a]

As to needing two parents, MANY people have only one parent and many people probably wish they had only one parent. Please don't say that there is something less about this. Families aren't about math. 2 is not automatically better than 1. What a child needs is a strong loving parental relationship with one or more people, who raise him/her. The gender of these parents is neither here nor there.

Where did I say I had an issue with one parent families?

If you're referring to my comment about Elton John having the opportunity to provide a home with two loving parents that is just acknowledgement that he isn't single.

My issue with IVF/surrogacy and all that goes with it is with intent. It intends to put a child into a situation where at best they have split home but more often at least one parent is denied them, simply because an adult wants. It isn't about gender at all. As I said I have just as big a problem with straight couples making use of these services as I do gays. I don't think it is fair to any child to plan to deny them a parent and I won't support any activity that does this.

I see little difference in this than paying someone for their child. In many countries where it is legal to buy/sell eggs and sperm that is exactly what people are doing. They're buying children. How is that remotely ethical? Would you allow someone to buy a 2 year old?

I have no issue with gays adopting. It takes a lot of courage and commitment and I have enormous respect for all couples who adopt. Especially older kids given they come with higher needs.

Single parent families are entirely different and I don't understand why they always get bought up in these conversations. They come about because of life running it's course and it is rarely the intent of the parent for things to turn out that way. Not prior to conception. When it is intentional it is usually the result of one partner doing their very best to exclude the other and those I have a problem with (when it isn't justified due to abuse), as I'm sure we all do. Even then it's due usually due to a relationship break down and not intended prior to the child been born.

 

[Jax]

Elton John rocks...

Dolce and Gabbana sucks...

I know who my money is on

 

[hux]

Don't agree with gay marriage either for that matter. Mainly because of my view on IVF. Sure we'll still have IVF amongst LGBT couples without marriage but I think it makes it more accessible and acceptable.

Sounds more like you're against IVF because it gives you an excuse to be against gay marriage. If this isn't about sexuality then presumably you're also against heterosexual marriage since that also makes IVF more accessible and acceptable

Doesn't add up

The children aren't synthetic, but the methods absolutely are

So fucking what?

We should ban all things that are non natural?

Elton's pacemaker will be pleased.

 

[Timewalker]

Wait, the designers are gay? What kind of fashion designer says "I don't want people like me to buy my clothes"?

They don't mind if gays buy their clothes. They just don't want gays to raise children that are not "real."

I wonder what percentage of the fabric content of their clothes is 100% cotton, wool, or silk and how much is rayon, polyester, plastic, and other synthetics. I guess they don't have a problem with clothes that aren't real...

So... they're gay and have a problem with surrogacy? Uh...
ETA: IDIC, I suppose...

I'm gay and don't agree with surrogacy. At all. I don't agree with sperm or egg donorship either. Don't like it for straight couples either so it isn't some anti-gay thing.

Don't agree with gay marriage either for that matter. Mainly because of my view on IVF. Sure we'll still have IVF amongst LGBT couples without marriage but I think it makes it more accessible and acceptable.

What does one have to do with the other? I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people who have used IVF are heterosexual people who for some reason can't conceive or sire a child themselves.

The children aren't synthetic, but the methods absolutely are.

It's not like Brave New World. A woman still gives birth to a baby.

No idea what IDIC means??

This is a Star Trek forum, where it's normal for people to cite the acronym that means Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination.

I have a lot of respect for D&G over this. Their wording wasn't the best but a lot of people in their position, especially if they're gay, wouldn't have the guts to come out with it.

It's not particularly brave to say ignorant, bigoted things in public.

Elton John ... could have adopted. ... Children aren't commodities. We shouldn't allow them to be bought.

You seem to be under the impression that adoption agencies work for free.

My issue with IVF/surrogacy and all that goes with it is with intent. It intends to put a child into a situation where at best they have split home but more often at least one parent is denied them, simply because an adult wants. It isn't about gender at all. As I said I have just as big a problem with straight couples making use of these services as I do gays. I don't think it is fair to any child to plan to deny them a parent and I won't support any activity that does this.

When a surrogacy agreement is entered into, the contract spells out what degree of contact, if any, the biological mother will have with the baby. Both parties are required to honor the terms of the contract.

I see little difference in this than paying someone for their child. In many countries where it is legal to buy/sell eggs and sperm that is exactly what people are doing. They're buying children. How is that remotely ethical? Would you allow someone to buy a 2 year old?

That is precisely what people are doing when they adopt a 2-year-old from an orphanage. Granted, it's not like the kid comes with a price tag hung around the neck, but the myriad fees the prospective parents have to pay is astronomical by many peoples' standards, and the effect is indeed that they "bought" a child, since you can't just go into an orphanage or foster home, pick out a kid, and walk off with it.

I have no issue with gays adopting. It takes a lot of courage and commitment and I have enormous respect for all couples who adopt. Especially older kids given they come with higher needs.

Children shouldn't be bought. But gays can adopt. Adoption costs money. But children shouldn't be bought.

Maybe gay couples should just pick up a stray cat or dog off the street and then it wouldn't offend anybody.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

My issue with IVF/surrogacy and all that goes with it is with intent. It intends to put a child into a situation where at best they have split home but more often at least one parent is denied them, simply because an adult wants. It isn't about gender at all. As I said I have just as big a problem with straight couples making use of these services as I do gays. I don't think it is fair to any child to plan to deny them a parent and I won't support any activity that does this.

Most people who do surrogacy and IVF are in a couple situation. The vast majority. It's expensive and with IVF physically grueling for the mother. So how does IVF/surrogacy "intend" to put a child in a situation where "more often than not at least one parent is denied them".

 

[Skellington]

I'm not yet an expert on John's oeuvre, especially his earlier stuff, but his latest album, The Diving Board, is absolutely wonderful, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it were his best yet. It's a bit funkier than 2006's marvelous The Captain & the Kid, but is also maybe deeper and richer for it.

I've just purchased The Diving Board based on your appraisal. Let's see how this goes.

No idea what IDIC means??

"Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations".

I have a lot of respect for D&G over this. Their wording wasn't the best but a lot of people in their position, especially if they're gay, wouldn't have the guts to come out with it.

This may be true, and initially I thought they were making a reasonably credible case for their position. But then they made sweeping generalisations of a somewhat dismissive nature, Elton John called them on it and Gabbana seems to have wasted no time or opportunity in seeking the sympathy vote.

Elton John himself came out in 2012 and said it was heart breaking that his child didn't have a mother. I agree. Pity Elton John didn't think of when he decided to use IVF. He could have adopted. Given a child without a home a great home with two loving parents.

But neither of those foster parents is female. Adoption would not have changed this.

Instead he decided to go through a process that intentionally denied his own child one of their parents.

The key words here are "his own child". I see no reason why gay couples should be less entitled than straight couples to pass on their genes and raise their own children as their own children.
As for the relative merits of homosexual parents versus heterosexual ones, it seems that most of us are missing out.

 

[Gaith]

I am WITH you, Gaith!!! Let's Ride!

I've just purchased The Diving Board based on your appraisal. Let's see how this goes.

Nice! Please do report back your findings.

 

[jaz'a]

The point of my original post was really just to say that yes, sometimes gay folks aren't on the gay marriage and IVF kids bandwagon.

It's not that uncommon that it should be surprising.

Don't agree with gay marriage either for that matter. Mainly because of my view on IVF. Sure we'll still have IVF amongst LGBT couples without marriage but I think it makes it more accessible and acceptable.

Sounds more like you're against IVF because it gives you an excuse to be against gay marriage. If this isn't about sexuality then presumably you're also against heterosexual marriage since that also makes IVF more accessible and acceptable

Doesn't add up .

Why would I be looking for reasons to be against gay marriage?

You're pulling that opinion out of no where.

I don't see what the fuss is about, at least in Australia. In countries such as the US where there appear to be a lot of legal issues and discrimination is more common, I'm more understanding of it's importance. If it happens, it happens. Either way I won't change the party I vote for regardless of their stance. Which incidentally is the party I expect to make gay marriage part of party policy first and be the party it will become legal under. The liberals certainly won't do it.

I don't like it, in part because of the IVF kids issue, but not enough to change my vote. I dislike the liberals more.

I am grateful that to date the Labor party hasn't pushed it and allowed the Liberal party to turn it into an election issue. I don't want my nation divided over an issue I see as unimportant.

 

[jaz'a]

My issue with IVF/surrogacy and all that goes with it is with intent. It intends to put a child into a situation where at best they have split home but more often at least one parent is denied them, simply because an adult wants. It isn't about gender at all. As I said I have just as big a problem with straight couples making use of these services as I do gays. I don't think it is fair to any child to plan to deny them a parent and I won't support any activity that does this.

Most people who do surrogacy and IVF are in a couple situation. The vast majority. It's expensive and with IVF physically grueling for the mother. So how does IVF/surrogacy "intend" to put a child in a situation where "more often than not at least one parent is denied them".

My comments have been linked to gays using IVF. The overlap to straight couples is when sperm/egg donorship is used as well. They may be in a couple situation but they absolutely are seeking to put the child in a position where they are denied at least one of their parents.

Gay couples jump through all sorts of hoops to do exactly this. As do straight couples who make use of donorship.

 

[hux]

Why would I be looking for reasons to be against gay marriage?

A good question. You should ask yourself it more often

You're pulling that opinion out of no where.

No, you said.........

Don't agree with gay marriage either for that matter. Mainly because of my view on IVF. Sure we'll still have IVF amongst LGBT couples without marriage but I think it makes it more accessible and acceptable.

You're against gay marriage "mainly" because it makes IVF more accessible and acceptable. By that logic, you would also be against heterosexual marriage for the same reasons

But I doubt you are......so what's the difference?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

My issue with IVF/surrogacy and all that goes with it is with intent. It intends to put a child into a situation where at best they have split home but more often at least one parent is denied them, simply because an adult wants. It isn't about gender at all. As I said I have just as big a problem with straight couples making use of these services as I do gays. I don't think it is fair to any child to plan to deny them a parent and I won't support any activity that does this.

Most people who do surrogacy and IVF are in a couple situation. The vast majority. It's expensive and with IVF physically grueling for the mother. So how does IVF/surrogacy "intend" to put a child in a situation where "more often than not at least one parent is denied them".

My comments have been linked to gays using IVF. The overlap to straight couples is when sperm/egg donorship is used as well. They may be in a couple situation but they absolutely are seeking to put the child in a position where they are denied at least one of their parents.

BIG math problem here.

 

[LordMudd]

I am adopted.
I am not gay.
I have gay friends.
My family is Italian.
I would eat Barilla pasta if it wasn't so damn expensive.
I like Elton John.
I have never heard of D & G.

Synthetic people? Just sounds like a new form of discrimination, and discrimination is illegal here. Sounds like Reg has a good idea there to me.


CCC.

 

[shivkala]

I see little difference in this than paying someone for their child. In many countries where it is legal to buy/sell eggs and sperm that is exactly what people are doing. They're buying children. How is that remotely ethical? Would you allow someone to buy a 2 year old?

That is precisely what people are doing when they adopt a 2-year-old from an orphanage. Granted, it's not like the kid comes with a price tag hung around the neck, but the myriad fees the prospective parents have to pay is astronomical by many peoples' standards, and the effect is indeed that they "bought" a child, since you can't just go into an orphanage or foster home, pick out a kid, and walk off with it.

I looked up the cost of adoption in Australia where jazamul's from:

12. What are the costs involved in adopting a child?

The administrative and legal costs relating to a local adoption in Western Australia are around $2,000.

The cost of adopting a child from overseas ranges from $6,000 to $25,000. Overseas costs include administrative and legal as well as other expenses relating to overseas travel and accommodation. There is an assessment fee associated with inter country adoption applications. Currently the assessment fee is $986. Only a minor part of the costs in regard to an overseas adoption are associated with Departmental or government charges.

Here in the United States, my sister and her husband adopted a child and it was a very expensive proposition. So much so, they constantly fret about whether or not they want to adopt another child, due to the expense of just the adoption alone.

The biological mother agreed not to have any contact with her child. I wonder what jazamul would have to say to this, because, despite the fact that my sister and her husband love their child very much, jazamul believes my niece is missing out on something.

Granted it's a very fine distinction and I'm sure parents of both adopted and IVF children would not view it as "buying children," but in both cases, money has to be exchanged before the parents can have a child.

Anyway, I think it's time this thread had a soundtrack. I suggest starting with "Believe," due to the line:

"I believe in love, it's all we got
Love has no boundaries, no borders to cross
Love is simple, hate breeds
Those who think difference is the child of disease"

 

[mimic]

I had no idea IVF was considered controversial. My cousin and his wife had fertility issues and were able to have a son using it. He turned 3 yesterday.

My coworker is a surrogate right now. I don't know the details, but again, not really seeing how it's anyone's business but hers and the couple whose child she's carrying.

I don't really follow how the method of conception/manner of birth is going to have any impact on the quality of family life that a child will experience. If anything, the fact that the parents can afford this and must desperately want the child (or why go through all that trouble?) would indicate that it would probably be better off than your average child.

 

[LordMudd]

My mother had twin girls. They lived 14 days. That is why they adopted me. The only reason I have ever/would ever consider contact with my birth family is my lack of a family medical history. So far I have not needed it.


CCC.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There are pluses and negatives to adoption, surrogacy, egg and sperm donation.

There are pluses and negatives to being conceived the traditional way and growing up in any family with a mom or dad.

Families and humans are complicated.

I really cannot understand what pluses and negatives there would be to IVF where the sperm and egg used are the couple's having the baby, but it seems some people have a problem with this.. call me when you need modern medicine to make some part of your body function as desired