Does the Federation have a police force?

[Vanyel]

Or is that another duty of Starfleet. Seems like a bit too much power for one branch of the Federation to have. If Starfleet is the police of the Federation, they would occupy three positions of power in the Federation. Defense, exploration (and by definition first contact), scientific research and policing. Well that's four. That's a lot to be held in the hands of a few Admirals and a President.

Or do the individual planets have their own police forces?

 

[Wowbagger]

The books traditionally assume each member world has its own internal security forces. Starfleet is considered primarily a military organization, which involves itself to some degree in internal Fleet security and national security issues, as well as serving as reinforcement of local forces when necessary (much like the National Guard, it sometimes seems), but you'd never see a Federation starship be given primary responsibility for, say, hunting down petty identity thieves.

Presumably there's also a UFP-wide equivalent of the FBI, although the CIA analogue does indeed appear to be S.I./S31.

Does that help at all, or am I too tired to make sense?

 

[Timo]

The thing is, onscreen we have never seen any sort of a local police force on any known UFP member world. If there has been local police, it has been an organization somewhat at odds with Starfleet and the Federation, such as on that mining planet in DS9 "Progidal Daughter".

On Earth, Starfleet seems to perform the FBI role: hunting for spies and Maquis. Starfleet also seems to enjoy complete jurisdiction over its own personnel, regardless of the nature of the crimes they commit: it seems to be Starfleet that chases Harry Kim or Leonard McCoy in San Francisco, and takes custody after an arrest is made, operating a gaol of its own somewhere in the city.

The existence of planet-specific intelligence services is confirmed, though: Vulcan has one in "Unification" at least. And then there's this Federation Security, whatever that is, that sends its agent to arrest McCoy and deliver him to Starfleet hands.

I'm not sure it would be that bad an idea to have Starfleet handle everything from municipal sanitary services to counterespionage. A "separate" police organization wouldn't really be qualitatively different: its leaders, too, would ultimately be responsible to some Minister in the cabinet of Federation Prime Minister (as novels suggest) or President (since onscreen we don't hear of a Prime Minister, and the President is shown making major non-ceremonial decisions, suggesting a system where either the President is the Prime Minister or else he or she has political powers over the Prime Minister).

Does it really matter whether the head of police is the Minister of Interior or the Minister of Defense? Totalitarian regimes do just fine with delegating the police work to Interior, while free democracies could plausibly be construed with militia-type law enforcement agencies.

Given the blatant lack of references to civilian police, I'd tend to think that Starfleet indeed is the Federation police, and possbily also that there is no local police as such. Remember that this is the brave new world where criminal tendencies are screened against at youth, and criminals are always considered mentally ill and cured of their vices after arrest. The need for policing would be very different from the needs today: if there is violent crime, it's probably in the form of massive riots where "justified" passions surface, not in the form of private acts of "criminal" aggression. And if those riots erupt, then it obviously is time to call in Starfleet...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vanyel]

Timo said:
The thing is, onscreen we have never seen any sort of a local police force on any known UFP member world. If there has been local police, it has been an organization somewhat at odds with Starfleet and the Federation, such as on that mining planet in DS9 "Progidal Daughter".

On Earth, Starfleet seems to perform the FBI role: hunting for spies and Maquis. Starfleet also seems to enjoy complete jurisdiction over its own personnel, regardless of the nature of the crimes they commit: it seems to be Starfleet that chases Harry Kim or Leonard McCoy in San Francisco, and takes custody after an arrest is made, operating a gaol of its own somewhere in the city.

The existence of planet-specific intelligence services is confirmed, though: Vulcan has one in "Unification" at least. And then there's this Federation Security, whatever that is, that sends its agent to arrest McCoy and deliver him to Starfleet hands.

I'm not sure it would be that bad an idea to have Starfleet handle everything from municipal sanitary services to counterespionage. A "separate" police organization wouldn't really be qualitatively different: its leaders, too, would ultimately be responsible to some Minister in the cabinet of Federation Prime Minister (as novels suggest) or President (since onscreen we don't hear of a Prime Minister, and the President is shown making major non-ceremonial decisions, suggesting a system where either the President is the Prime Minister or else he or she has political powers over the Prime Minister).

Does it really matter whether the head of police is the Minister of Interior or the Minister of Defense? Totalitarian regimes do just fine with delegating the police work to Interior, while free democracies could plausibly be construed with militia-type law enforcement agencies.

Given the blatant lack of references to civilian police, I'd tend to think that Starfleet indeed is the Federation police, and possbily also that there is no local police as such. Remember that this is the brave new world where criminal tendencies are screened against at youth, and criminals are always considered mentally ill and cured of their vices after arrest. The need for policing would be very different from the needs today: if there is violent crime, it's probably in the form of massive riots where "justified" passions surface, not in the form of private acts of "criminal" aggression. And if those riots erupt, then it obviously is time to call in Starfleet...

Timo Saloniemi

But wouldn't, "calling in the troops" be at odds with a free state? Having Starfleet brake up riots and then having sole jurisdiction over its members gives them a lot of slack.

For instance in A Matter of Perspective, Riker is accused of murder. The local authorities demand Picard turn him over citing Starflet Regulations as precedent. Picard trumps them by saying that its only at the Captains discretion. That is a very broad discretionary power to have. Picard, or any star ship captain could have reviewed the evidence, and used any flaw, or even at his own whim, declare that his officer is not going to be handed over. The local authorities would be at a loss.

And while Earth may be the Garden of Eden, other worlds are not. I would wonder who arrested the Ferengie who attempted to break into Fort Knox? What about crimes of passion? Or crimes that are committed out of negligence? There are people with their own shuttles, and while Starfleet uses synthohol, the rest of Earths population may not want to use it. Couldn't there be drunk flying? Or a few kids hot rodding through the skies.

Also would Starfleet be responsible for the non Federation citizen on Earth who comes from a world that isn't the utopia that Earth is?

I guess what I'm getting at is that having Starfleet policing its own, is to a certin extent, acceptable. As I understand it, our own military works in pretty much the same way. Except, again as I understand it, if, say a naval officer, is accused of murdering someone at the mall, the civilian courts get him first. Only if he is convicted does the military court have a crack at him.

It's after 4:30 in the morning here. If my post doesn't make sense, let me know, I'll try to clear up my thinking when I wake up at around the crack of noon or later.

 

[BrotherBenny]

The Federation is a civilian entity and Federaton Security would probably be the FBI. The United Earth police would therefore act as a planetary police force, much like the Bajoran Militia or whatever.

 

[Timo]

But wouldn't, "calling in the troops" be at odds with a free state?

I don't see why. The men in camo uniforms are likely to be just as much under democratic, parliamentary control as the men in blue uniforms.

Why should the citizens care whether the men wielding riot control weapons against them call themselves "Happy Smiley Police Friends" or "Dirty Baby-killing Soldier Bastards" when the aims, means and end result are identical in both cases?

I'd think it would simplify and streamline the police organization if the people serving in it were all on Starfleet payroll and in Starfleet uniform. Moreover, the friendly local police officer and the brave adventurous space explorer would both for their part polish the public image of Starfleet, even if the alien-slaughtering space soldiers tarnish that image somewhat.

What practical advantage would be gained by making the police force a wholly separate organization? Starfleet already comes with a bewildering variety of sub-organizations. There's even a Terraform Command there.

I actually wouldn't wonder a bit if the medical system in the 24th century also worked under the Starfleet aegis... Sure, Bones used to be a private physician, but does such a thing exist in the TNG era?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm sure each UFP member world has civilian police forces as well. We were actually going to see them in Homefront/Paradise Lost (United Earth officers being 'federalized' by the Federation President) but it got cut for time.

As for Starfleet fulfilling that role: I don't buy it. Much as I don't like nuBSG, I have to quote it here (paraphrasing Adama):

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

 

[Vanyel]

Babaganoosh said:
I'm sure each UFP member world has civilian police forces as well. We were actually going to see them in Homefront/Paradise Lost (United Earth officers being 'federalized' by the Federation President) but it got cut for time.

As for Starfleet fulfilling that role: I don't buy it. Much as I don't like nuBSG, I have to quote it here (paraphrasing Adama):

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

That's a very good piece of advice.

Forgot to add this. My bad.

Timo said:

But wouldn't, "calling in the troops" be at odds with a free state?

I don't see why. The men in camo uniforms are likely to be just as much under democratic, parliamentary control as the men in blue uniforms.

Why should the citizens care whether the men wielding riot control weapons against them call themselves "Happy Smiley Police Friends" or "Dirty Baby-killing Soldier Bastards" when the aims, means and end result are identical in both cases?

It's an old saying, but the ends do not justify the means.

Timo said:
I'd think it would simplify and streamline the police organization if the people serving in it were all on Starfleet payroll and in Starfleet uniform. Moreover, the friendly local police officer and the brave adventurous space explorer would both for their part polish the public image of Starfleet, even if the alien-slaughtering space soldiers tarnish that image somewhat.

What practical advantage would be gained by making the police force a wholly separate organization? Starfleet already comes with a bewildering variety of sub-organizations. There's even a Terraform Command there.

A local police force would, by definition, be under local control. Starfleet is under the control of the Federation Council, putting their superiors above the local authorities.

We also need to take into account, that the 150 plus worlds in the Federation would mean that there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of different laws, codes of conduct, social and political mores and many more differences.

A single organization could not handle that.

I guess I answered my own question.

No Starfleet can't be the Federations police force. There are too many different cultures for any single organization to handle. Perhaps Starfleet can be the "FBI" of the Federation. Enforcing laws that are set by the federal government. I do think I'm right that being called a United Federation of Planets would imply a federal government, correct? Starfleet would enforce illegal trafficking, tracking criminals who cross from one jurisdiction to another and providing assistance to local law enforcement when needed. Just like the FBI does in the USA.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Well here in the real world each level of government from the bottom on up have police forces.

So the difference in the Federation could be 2 additional levels, global police forces and UFP wide.

 

[Sci]

I see no particular reason to presume that Starfleet serves as a police force; the fact that an organization called "Federation Security" sent its agents to arrest McCoy suggests to me that if there is a Federation-wide police or investigatory force, that's probably it.

 

[Timo]

I don't quite see how these "a single organization can't handle the diversity" and "it's local so global or universal won't work" arguments can cut it.

Starfleet is not a "single" organization. It's a hierarchial organization, just as USS Excelsior points out. It's as local as it needs be, down to the level of individual employees. It's not as if police today would be any more local: the lowly constable at Upper Soggy Bottom still has to pay heed to the laws and regulations decreed by the suits in Washington.

And if Starfleet can't handle the diversity of the Federation, how come there is a Federation in the first place? The Federation shouldn't be able to handle the diversity of the Federation!

I guess it goes without saying that Starfleet is the FBI (and the CIA) of the Federation, hunting down enemies of the state, performing investigations on both domestic and foreign subjects, and gathering intelligence on both types of subject. The question goes, does there exist anything below FBI level in the Federation? And the problem is, we have never seen anything like it. Starfleet performs all the arrests, both those of its own personnel, and those of people like Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones or, apparently, Lenore Karidian.

It's not an unheard-of setup at all. Limited frontier resources have often been applied so that the military troops under the governor get to perform police duties as well - to provide employment for said troops if for nothing else.

As for whether the police part of Starfleet would share sentiments with the invasion army part or the spying and assassination part, thereby leading to some sort of a dystopia... Why wouldn't the police part rather share sentiments with the medical branch of Starfleet, or the archaeological branch, or the child care branch which for all we know also exists under that umbrella?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Furlong]

The way I see it is planets and communities still having their own police forces, with Starfleet acting as a sort of combined INTERPOL and NCIS. They have jurisdiction over cases involving Starfleet officers and in cases involving multiple planets.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Starfleet handles mutual defense, generally sticking to space and space stations. Planetary defense or simple policing is up to member worlds. If war breaks out, you could see Starfleet personnel in action on member worlds, but that's not the usual thing.

 

[captcalhoun]

my take is

Starfleet Security handles internal security (policing, counter-intelligence (spy-catching) and some counter-piracy)

Starfleet Intelligence handles intelligence gathering (CIA/MI6 guff)

Starfleet Special Ops handles counter-terrorism, some counter-piracy and black military ops

Starfleet Infantry are the ground-pounders in a war.

Starfleet Ops handles the exploration and starship operating guff

then you've got Medical, Corps of Engineers, Tactical, R&D, etc.

 

[Vanyel]

Timo said:
I don't quite see how these "a single organization can't handle the diversity" and "it's local so global or universal won't work" arguments can cut it.

Starfleet is not a "single" organization. It's a hierarchial organization, just as USS Excelsior points out. It's as local as it needs be, down to the level of individual employees. It's not as if police today would be any more local: the lowly constable at Upper Soggy Bottom still has to pay heed to the laws and regulations decreed by the suits in Washington.

But it would be up to the local constable to enforces speed limits. Why should Starfleet be needed to enforce local laws? Why would, say an Ambassador Class ship, spend its time and resources enforcing littering laws? or loitering? or simple teenaged rebellion?

Timo said:
And if Starfleet can't handle the diversity of the Federation, how come there is a Federation in the first place? The Federation shouldn't be able to handle the diversity of the Federation!

It's not a matter of handling diversity, its a matter of putting too much power is in one organization.

Would you want the military, no matter how benevolent, policing the streets?

Timo said:
I guess it goes without saying that Starfleet is the FBI (and the CIA) of the Federation, hunting down enemies of the state, performing investigations on both domestic and foreign subjects, and gathering intelligence on both types of subject. The question goes, does there exist anything below FBI level in the Federation? And the problem is, we have never seen anything like it. Starfleet performs all the arrests, both those of its own personnel, and those of people like Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones or, apparently, Lenore Karidian.

It's not an unheard-of setup at all. Limited frontier resources have often been applied so that the military troops under the governor get to perform police duties as well - to provide employment for said troops if for nothing else.

Providing back up and being the only force available that is capable of law enforcement would, as you point out be a limited, responsibility. Limited until the area is organized enough to enforce its own laws. Then Starfleet should go back to its own responsibility of exploration, first contact and defense.

 

[Timo]

But it would be up to the local constable to enforces speed limits. Why should Starfleet be needed to enforce local laws? Why would, say an Ambassador Class ship, spend its time and resources enforcing littering laws? or loitering? or simple teenaged rebellion?

Huh?

Of course Starfleet wouldn't send in a starship. Starfleet would send in a single person armed with a stun baton and a PADD.

Starfleet isn't somehow constitutionally required to use starships for everything it does. Where did you get that impression? The US Navy doesn't send in an aircraft carrier to arrest a drunken sailor, either.

If Starfleet were the Federation police, your own village would have a friendly local Starfleet police official who has probably never even seen a starship from the inside.

It's not a matter of handling diversity, its a matter of putting too much power is in one organization.

Depends on what you mean with "organization". Policing and combat are handled by a single organization in the United States, too. That organization is called the government. Ultimately, some level of organization is going to have all the power. And we accept that, because we have safeguards in place. No reason why those safeguards couldn't be applied on Starfleet and its various suborganizations, too.

Then Starfleet should go back to its own responsibility of exploration, first contact and defense.

Why? If concentration of power is bad, then Starfleet should be forbidden from exploring anything, least of all contacting. Why give the soldiers the power to practice diplomacy?

Indeed, why give them the power to fight? That if anything is scary. Starfleet should be divided in at least three separate organizations working under three different ministries/departments: one for flying the ships, another for firing their guns, and a third for deploying their troops. Six chairs on each bridge: one for the Captain of each respective department, and one for the personal politruk of each of those. Now that should rein in all the loose power nicely enough!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Depends on what you mean with "organization". Policing and combat are handled by a single organization in the United States, too. That organization is called the government.

Negatory. You've forgotten that the United States does not have just one government -- it has thousands: One federal government, fifty state governments, a federal district government, five territory governments, and thousands of local governments. We are not a unitary state. Welcome to federalism, where multiple governments work alongside -- and sometimes against -- each other within a single national polity. Policing in the United States is most commonly handled by the local governments. Less commonly it is handled by the state government, and in special cases it's handled by the Federal government.

Ultimately, some level of organization is going to have all the power. And we accept that, because we have safeguards in place. No reason why those safeguards couldn't be applied on Starfleet and its various suborganizations, too.

I think you'll find that you have trouble convincing most Americans, with their Posse Comitatus Act, that any one uniformed service can be trusted to hold all law enforcement power. I imagine most of us would argue instead that it's better to have multiple uniformed services with differing authorities so that no one service is able to gain too much power on the national level -- better to have the City Police Department (with the Police Commissioner or Chief chosen by the elected City Council) and County Sheriff (popularly elected by the county) and State Troopers (appointed by the elected state government) bickering over who has jurisdiction over a given case than to have the United States Army, created by an organization so large that there would be no local accountability, on every street corner.

Why? If concentration of power is bad, then Starfleet should be forbidden from exploring anything, least of all contacting. Why give the soldiers the power to practice diplomacy?

Actually, in an ideal world, I don't think you would give Starfleet that authority. But it's impractical to put an ambassador on every starship when you're trying to explore, so you make the compromise and allow captains -- who presumably have been given diplomatic training -- that authority. But it's not impractical for a federal system of government to maintain multiple uniformed services, so why concentrate power when it's unnecessary?

 

[RandyS]

I thought Starfleet served as the Federation's police force?

 

[Sci]

I thought Starfleet served as the Federation's police force?

There's no indication of that. We know that Starfleet serves as the Federation's exploratory and military force. We know that Starfleet officers are sometimes empowered to negotiate with foreign states, and we know from DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." that Starfleet officers may supplement local law enforcement. But we've never seen Starfleet act as regular law enforcement, and, indeed, DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" makes it clear that the idea of Starfleet serving in such a capacity is the sort of thing that only happens when there's been a declaration of martial law.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think you'll find that you have trouble convincing most Americans, with their Posse Comitatus Act, that any one uniformed service can be trusted to hold all law enforcement power.

Also, the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution would prohibit us from establishing a national police force.