Does the Bajoran Religion Have a Name?

[plynch]

This displays how comparmentalized we are. In many cultures, religion is not a separate THING like it is in secular Western culture. It is part and parcel of life. Specific rituals will have a name, but honoring/revering/fearing/invoking the transcendent is part of the warp and woof, daily or even all throughout the day. In medieval Europe, they wouldn't say they "practice Christianity." They were Christian ( little Christs) and there was "the Church" and maybe "the faith." It was called the Way in ancient Rome. which is another example. What is the name of all their Roman rituals in toto? Don't tb

 

[Timo]

Well, in the pilot, Bajor is said to be divided to such an extent between factions, that only religion could hold them together. if the Kai would call for unity. So if that stability is there, it hasn't been there as an unbreakable constant over all that time.

The point there being, it was the Cardassian occupation that broke the tradition that had lasted for apparent tens of thousands of generations.

Apparently, one of the things the Cardassians utterly destroyed was the caste system: not only did the freedom fighters break away from this system, nobody on the planet is part of the system as the Occupation concludes, and everybody has difficulty fitting back in as of "Accession". But just as apparently, one of the things the Cardassians didn't attempt, bother or manage to destroy was the religion, of which there just as apparently was only this one sort across the globe, hence the potential for unity in "Emissary".

Within the religion itself, there are at least several orders. There is talk of orthodox and informal orders, and there probably are more degrees of freedom. At least one Vedek was defrocked for publicly disagreeing with the Vedek Assembly viewpoint. So there seems to be a certain amount of variation and disagreement (perhaps even dissent), both within and beyond the borders of their "church".

There doesn't seem to exist the option of joining sect Y if sect X doesn't pan out, though. That is, we never hear of any name for Y, just like we never hear of any name for X. If you get kicked out, you're out, rather than joining or founding a separate branch. And there's no shame in being out: the vast majority of the culture appears secular by profession, even if practicing the religion. Going from religion to politics is fine and well, say.

The shame is in being unorthodox enough to worship the bad guys, as far as we can tell. But nobody does that but Gul Dukat in disguise.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

What about Paghism?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Pagh

Would make a lot of sense imo, as the concept of the Pagh plays a big part in their religion. And some earthern religions like Buddhism are named after a central concept of their belief instead of a god or a historical person.

 

[Timo]

I guess it would work just fine, just as Christianity could alternately be called Prayerism or Soulianity, say. But names mainly exist in order to differentiate, and Paghism might fare badly there in both of our scenarios:

1) One religion: no need to differentiate.
2) Many religions: all feature pagh, because it's an easily verifiable physical building block of that universe - just grab an ear.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I guess it would work just fine, just as Christianity could alternately be called Prayerism or Soulianity, say. But names mainly exist in order to differentiate, and Paghism might fare badly there in both of our scenarios:

1) One religion: no need to differentiate.
2) Many religions: all feature pagh, because it's an easily verifiable physical building block of that universe - just grab an ear.

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, but the difference with christianity for example is that there are many religions out there with the concept of a soul and prayer is a central activity of almost all religions, while the pagh might be a totally unique concept of the bajoran faith.

So if there aren't other religions or denominations out there, which share the concept of the pagh, i would guess paghism would be a good name for the bajoran religion.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Soulianity

I think they played as a support act at a gig I was at once

 

[Timo]

Yeah, but the difference with christianity for example is that there are many religions out there with the concept of a soul and prayer is a central activity of almost all religions, while the pagh might be a totally unique concept of the bajoran faith.

I don't quite see how. All Bajorans supposedly would demonstrably have a pagh, while humans at least can debate amongst themselves whether they have souls.

So if there aren't other religions or denominations out there, which share the concept of the pagh, i would guess paghism would be a good name for the bajoran religion.

Ah, to separate it from the other religions of the galaxy? Might work. But then again, other touch telepaths would also be in touch (literally!) with their inner paghs. If the Vulcans call it katra, isn't that more a job for the Universal Translator than a practical way to distinguish between the two religions? (Assuming, that is, that the Vulcans have a religion as regards their katra; their religious fervor might be all spent on the logic thing, with everyday banalities such as immortal souls excluded from these higher metaphysical ponderings.)

Of course, it does seem to work just that way in other respects: "Vulcan" and "Bajor" don't get translated into "Dirt" even if they both mean the very thing, so creating an artificial distinction between Pagh and Katra and Soul might be done the same way, too.

I wonder... If Vulcans and Bajorans can verify the existence of this Soul-by-another-name with their touch telepathy, within their respective species, and they have touched the inner selves of humans like Sisko or Archer, is there already an established verdict on the existence of a soul in humans? Data on how immortal it might be? Nicely quantified assessment of Good and Evil, case by case? Heated religious debate on whether these satanic pointy-ears can be trusted on the issue? Any movement towards unified galactic religion as regards the soul business, if it turns out to be something engineered to every humanoid by those ancient meddlers?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

This displays how comparmentalized we are. In many cultures, religion is not a separate THING like it is in secular Western culture. It is part and parcel of life. Specific rituals will have a name, but honoring/revering/fearing/invoking the transcendent is part of the warp and woof, daily or even all throughout the day. In medieval Europe, they wouldn't say they "practice Christianity." They were Christian ( little Christs) and there was "the Church" and maybe "the faith." It was called the Way in ancient Rome. which is another example. What is the name of all their Roman rituals in toto? Don't tb

Medieval Europe did have names for each religion and the Romans must surely have had a word for the sects they were persecuting such as the christians. In Ireland we use generic terms like "the church" or going to "church" and when people say "god" its almost always assumed that we mean the RC christian church but it doesnt mean we dont also have an official name for it. Surely when the Romans talked about Ancient Egyptian religion they had a name like "Raism" or something

 

[Orphalesion]

Medieval Europe did have names for each religion and the Romans must surely have had a word for the sects they were persecuting such as the christians. In Ireland we use generic terms like "the church" or going to "church" and when people say "god" its almost always assumed that we mean the RC christian church but it doesnt mean we dont also have an official name for it.

Exactly! It's not like Christianity was solely called "the faith" or "the church" until the 19th century or something. It was always known as Christianity, and names for the subdivisions like Orthodoxy and Catholicism were also pretty much in use ever since those different churches developed as well as the names for the various heresies.
Or archaic words like "Christendom".

Surely when the Romans talked about Ancient Egyptian religion they had a name like "Raism" or something

No they didn't. They just called them followers of the Egyptian Gods, or if specific to one god, like Ra, they'd call them members of the Cult of Ra. You never find a word like "Wodanism" in the Roman Texts, rather they'd say "The Germanic Tribes worship Woden (or rather Mercury through the Interpretatio Romana)
But that's because those pagan religions worked differently, they didn't have the same mutual exclusivity that developed later, you could worship Ra and Zeus both, if you liked.
There were some specific cults that did have names however, mostly the Mystery Religions or other Philosophies that differentiated from the usual cults of gods.
The name for Christanity developed like that, they originally were the Followers of Christ-> the Christians-> Christianity

 

[Sci]

It would make the most sense to me to refer to the Bajoran religion as either "the Bajoran Faith," or "Prophetism."

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I don't quite see how. All Bajorans supposedly would demonstrably have a pagh, while humans at least can debate amongst themselves whether they have souls.



Ah, to separate it from the other religions of the galaxy? Might work. But then again, other touch telepaths would also be in touch (literally!) with their inner paghs. If the Vulcans call it katra, isn't that more a job for the Universal Translator than a practical way to distinguish between the two religions? (Assuming, that is, that the Vulcans have a religion as regards their katra; their religious fervor might be all spent on the logic thing, with everyday banalities such as immortal souls excluded from these higher metaphysical ponderings.)

Of course, it does seem to work just that way in other respects: "Vulcan" and "Bajor" don't get translated into "Dirt" even if they both mean the very thing, so creating an artificial distinction between Pagh and Katra and Soul might be done the same way, too.

I wonder... If Vulcans and Bajorans can verify the existence of this Soul-by-another-name with their touch telepathy, within their respective species, and they have touched the inner selves of humans like Sisko or Archer, is there already an established verdict on the existence of a soul in humans? Data on how immortal it might be? Nicely quantified assessment of Good and Evil, case by case? Heated religious debate on whether these satanic pointy-ears can be trusted on the issue? Any movement towards unified galactic religion as regards the soul business, if it turns out to be something engineered to every humanoid by those ancient meddlers?

Timo Saloniemi

What makes the Pagh unique is that apparently different than most conceptions of the soul by other religions, which often are something purely metaphysical and mostly based on belief or philosophical theories, it seems that the bajoran concept is a mixture of corporeal and telepathic sensations and theological assumptions about the prophets.

I suspect that this concept is unique enough that it might be used as a name for the bajoran religion, if we look at our religions on Earth which in some cases don't use the name of their main deity in their name but a central belief which is often the most important or relevant aspect for their adherents.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

What makes the Pagh unique is that apparently different than most conceptions of the soul by other religions

Doesn't that make it more of how an outsider might describe the religion, not the people who developed it and for whom it is organic?

 

[trekshark]

I guess it's easier for there to be only one religion when the gods visibly give prophesies or interfere with worldly events.

I was thinking something similar. We know they can take over people, probably at some point in the past they did so one or more times in public that got good first hand accounts. Then there are the orbs, which apparently any one can use, not just "church officials"

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

it seems that the bajoran concept is a mixture of corporeal and telepathic sensations and theological assumptions about the prophets.

Was it ever certain that the Pagh was any way telepathic and not just mumbo-jumbo?
I know everyone said Sisko had a strong Pagh but that was obvious from Ep1 when he finds the wormhole

 

[Replica Picard]

I know everyone said Sisko had a strong Pagh but that was obvious from Ep1 when he finds the wormhole

I didn't realize it until his Pa turned out to be Admiral Cartwright.

 

[Voth commando1]

Probably the faith of the prophets. Maybe it would have a name in the Bajoran language-perhaps, "the revealed truth of the prophets", though it would be a Bajoran word.

 

[Orphalesion]

I mean there's a point to be made for the idea that the worship of the Prophets has simply been the only religion on Bajor for so long that all names it might have had once have long since fallen out of use.
It's possible.

 

[PhotoBoy]

Well Christianity is named after the son of god and since Sisko is basically the son of a prophet, perhaps it should be called Siskoism?

 

[at Quark's]

What makes the Pagh unique is that apparently different than most conceptions of the soul by other religions, which often are something purely metaphysical and mostly based on belief or philosophical theories, it seems that the bajoran concept is a mixture of corporeal and telepathic sensations and theological assumptions about the prophets.

I suspect that this concept is unique enough that it might be used as a name for the bajoran religion, if we look at our religions on Earth which in some cases don't use the name of their main deity in their name but a central belief which is often the most important or relevant aspect for their adherents.

I'm not that sure. So Bajorans monks are supposedly able to feel the pagh in the ear in both other Bajorans and aliens such as Sisko (or Weyoun). Here on earth we have people who claim to be able to view the soul in a person's eyes. It still could be nothing more concrete than that, just solidified in a ritual. It's not as if we have some other circumstantial evidence it actually might exist, as we seemingly have for the Vulcan Katra. Well, other than that the Bajoran prophets actually exist.

 

[Orphalesion]

Well Christianity is named after the son of god and since Sisko is basically the son of a prophet, perhaps it should be called Siskoism?

1) That makes no sense since Sisko only came to Bajor in recent history.
2)Even if we account for the Prophets living in non-linear time, if the religion was named "Siskoism" somebody, anybody, would have commented on that at some point during the 7 seasons of DS9.