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Spoilers Does moving the Eugenics Wars into the 21st century fundamentally change things?

Do you prefer...

  • Moving the Eugenics Wars to fit within a possible version of our timeline?

    Votes: 27 36.5%
  • Or keeping it in the 1990s and just accepting that as Trek's version of the 1990s?

    Votes: 47 63.5%

  • Total voters
    74
Why are we using spoiler boxes when there's already a "Spoilers" flag in the thread title?
Courtesy?
Chapel had little enough characterization in TOS anyway that there isn't necessarily an inconsistency in personality, especially since there's a time difference of about 6 years. TOS's Chapel could've been just as effervescent in 2260, then gotten sadder and more subdued after falling in love with Roger Korby and then losing him.
The effervescent Chapel of SNW becoming the sad doormat version from TOS is a horrible fate to wish upon her. I'd rather they just keep going with the revamped characterization of Chapel 2.0, as she's a big improvement over the TOS version. In this case, I don't care about making the two shows reconcile, as I don't think there's much of anything about the first version of Chapel that's worth keeping.
This is assuming that the Klingon war didn't happen in the original timeline. I'm not sure that's so.
I would guess not. "Errand of Mercy" never gave me the impression that Starfleet had gone to war with the Klingons before.
SPOCK: Captain, we've reached the designated position for scanning the coded directive tape.
KIRK: Good. (puts it into a decoder) We both guessed right. Negotiations with the Klingon Empire are on the verge of breaking down. Starfleet Command anticipates a surprise attack. We are to proceed to Organia and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent the Klingons from using it as a base.
SPOCK: Strategically sound. Organia is the only Class M planet in the disputed area, ideally located for use by either side.
KIRK: Organia's description, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Inhabited by humanoids. A very peaceful, friendly people living on a primitive level. Little of intrinsic value. Approximately Class D minus on Richter's scale of cultures.
KIRK: Another Armenia, Belgium.
SPOCK: Sir?
KIRK: The weak innocents who always seem to be located on the natural invasion routes.

KIRK: Well, we've been anticipating an attack. I'd say what we've just experienced very nearly qualifies.
SPOCK: Yes. It would seem to be an unfriendly act.
UHURA: Automatic all-points relay from Starfleet Command, Captain, code one.
KIRK: Well, there it is. War. We didn't want it, but we've got it.
SPOCK: Curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want.
KIRK: War or not, we've still got a job to do. Denying Organia to the Klingons.
SPOCK: With the outbreak of hostilities, that might not be easy.
KIRK: Lay in a course for Organia, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.
SPOCK: Negotiating with the Organians will be time-consuming, Captain, and time is one thing we'll have the least of.
KIRK: We won't get it by talking about it. The trigger's been pulled. We have to get there before the hammer falls. Ahead warp factor seven.
It seems to me if the Federation had already been at war with the Klingon Empire just a decade before, Kirk would've said something like "Well, there it is. Another war" or "Well, there it is. We're at war with the Klingons again."
 
Changes to Khan and the Eugenics Wars goes beyond just a "nitpick."'
Not really. In a franchise with time travel it's a non-issue because it's built in excuses. I prefer to roll with it and if necessary treat it as a parallel branch.

That's it. The long paragraphs of justification are exercises in mental futility to make peace that will never come because it's dissatisfaction with the story itself.
you set up the circumstances for some later showrunner to write your version out of existence
Yes, that is their right. They make the show.
 
I think that's another problem with trying to "align" Trek's history with our timeline. If you go back and watch DS9's "Past Tense," they didn't produce that episode as a prediction of sanctuary districts in our future. The ending of part 2 almost explicitly asks the audience to think about the issues and avert it.

They no more wanted sanctuary districts to align with our timeline than TOS writers wanted the Eugenics Wars and World War III to be future events.

As I've said, that's taking the motivation behind the change too literally. As Akiva Goldsman explained it in the interview, it's not about getting the facts and figures to line up; it's about showing the audience something that feels like it could be in their own future, that's close enough to reality that they can imagine working to build something similar. The more distant the present feels from their own present, the less connection they make to it and the less relevant it feels to their own reality. It's not about getting every detail right, just about the overall impression it gives. It's about making it a reasonably close metaphor for our world, close enough to feel aspirational, rather than something so alternate that it feels detached from the audience's lives.


Because it's explained in the episode that it isn't a different timeline because of the Prophets' manipulations and their control of time. At the end of "Accession," Kira, Sisko and everyone else are unchanged and are aware that there was a point Akorem didn't finish poetry in the past and now there's finished poetry. Sisko didn't come back from the Wormhole to a station where events had moved 20 years into the future.

Again, it's a mistake to limit this to the question of whether the surface facts align. Facts in stories are arbitrary, since they're all made up. What matters is what narrative purpose they serve. That's why I brought up "Accession" -- not to say the in-universe facts or mechanism were the same, but to say the narrative intent of the storytellers of "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" was roughly the same, i.e. to change the distant past of the characters' universe in a way that maintained the same present aside from a few details. The point is that, narratively, they're still intended to be the same people, and that the vast majority of what the previous series/timeline established about them as characters is still valid.


I have 2 problems with the current direction. One is that I think it creates a narrative mess.

No, I think that narratively it simplifies things. Storytellers in ongoing universes, especially ones writing prequels and flashbacks, pretty much always revise their details while pretending that the same events still happened in broad strokes. So that would happen anyway, and already has happened many times in Star Trek. The only thing this does is to provide an in-universe handwave for what was already standard operating procedure for series writers. It's pretty much the same thing Doctor Who did when it used the Time War to explain the continuity changes between the classic and revival series. It doesn't alter how the stories are told, it just lampshades it.


And the second issue is that I think if you like Strange New Worlds and Discovery, it makes it easier to dismiss them.

I think you mean to say if you dislike them? Anyway, how is that a change from before? There have always been fans who insisted that the newest Trek "didn't count" or was an alternate timeline because it didn't exactly conform to their expectations. That's happened like clockwork with every series and film revival since TAS. There are one or two people who have been active on this BBS within the past decade who still consider everything after ST:TMP apocryphal. This won't make anyone dismiss the shows; it'll just make the people who already dismissed them say "See? I was right all along." Which is annoying, but not the storytellers' responsibility.

The responsibility of the storytellers is to focus on what they need to do in telling the stories. Establishing a way that you can alter the details of the continuity in a prequel is actually good for storytelling, because it gives the writers more freedom to serve the needs of the stories they're telling rather than the continuity details of other stories.

Nobody becomes a good athlete by dwelling on whether the audience cheers or boos them. They do it by focusing on how to play the game as well as possible. If they do that, the cheers follow, and the boos don't matter.



Changes to Khan and the Eugenics Wars goes beyond just a "nitpick." Both "Space Seed," Wrath of Khan, and Spock's death are major inflection points for the franchise as a whole. When you start changing aspects of those events, then it opens a barrel of worms, and basically argues that everything is in flux.

Nobody suggested changing any of those things, just the background that led to them. Hell, that was the whole point of Sera's rant in "Tomorrow and..." -- that no matter what anyone did to try to undo the Eugenics Wars, some version of the key events still happened, so that Khan still rose to power, was still exiled on the Botany Bay, and was still found by the Enterprise and so on. The different pasts all converge on the same present, whether by some kind of timeline inertia (cf. Spock's "Time is a river with currents" theory from "City") or by the corrective actions of temporal agents trying to fix alterations as best they can.


And if everything is changeable then every event within the larger story of Star Trek is transitory and subject to being fiddled with, and arguably has no meaning beyond what current showrunners think about them.

Which is literally just how fiction works, and how it's always worked. Storytellers are always free to alter their continuity at will -- just look at Marvel Comics over the decades. They just usually pretend it was always that way (like Roddenberry did with Klingon ridges in TMP). Explaining it with time travel isn't introducing change where it didn't exist before, it's simply handwaving the change that would've happened anyway because storytellers need the freedom to tweak things from time to time.

But it's quite clear from actually looking at what the writers of SNW are doing, instead of haring off into scaremongering hypotheticals, that their intent is to remain close to the narratively important facts and events of the TOS characters' lives. Not to throw everything out, but to have the freedom to adjust the nonessential and peripheral parts while still staying true to the core narrative and characters of TOS.
 
@JonnyQuest037

I quoted everything from "Errand of Mercy" a little while ago that I thought would be relevant. Let me see if I can find it. I don't know if Kirk fought in a Klingon War, but he definitely has some experience dealing with them. It doesn't sound like it's his first time around the block.

Cutting-and-pasting:

Discovery ending with Season 5 | Page 52 | The Trek BBS
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Exact quotes from "Errand of Mercy". Anyone feel free to quote this post anywhere they'd like to in the future. Especially if it comes up in the SNW Forum, since I won't be over there.

1.
Kirk: "We've both guessed right. Negotiations with the Klingon Empire are on the verge of breaking down. Starfleet Command anticipates a surprise attack. We are to proceed to Organia and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent the Klingons from using it as a base."

Spock: "Strategically sound. Organia is the only Class M Planet in the disputed area. Ideally located for use by either side."

2.
Kirk: "Well, we've been anticipating an attack. I'd say what we've just experienced very nearly qualified."

Spock: "Yes, it would seem to be a very unfriendly act."

Uhura: "Automatic all-points relay from Starfleet Command, Captain. Code One."

Kirk: "Well, there it is. War. We didn't want it, but we've got it."

Spock: "Curious how often you Humans manage to obtain that which you do not want."

3.
Kirk: "Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organized into vast slave labor camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed. Your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal colony. Infinitely better off."

4.
Kirk: "So, we're stranded here in the middle of a Klingon Occupation Army."

Spock: "So it would seem. Not a very pleasant prospect."

Kirk:
"You have a gift for understatement, Mr. Spock. It's not a very pleasant prospect at all!"

5.
Kirk: "You have a lot to learn. And if I know the Klingons, you'll be learning it the hard way."

6.
Kor: "Captain of the USS Enterprise! A starship commander! And his First Officer? I had hoped to meet you in battle."

7.
Kor: "The fact is, Captain, I have a great admiration for your Starfleet. A remarkable instrument. And I must confess to a certain admiration for you."

8.
Kirk: "We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons. They've invaded our territory. Killed our citizens. They're openly aggressive. They've boasted they'll take over half the galaxy!"

Kor: "And why not?! We're the stronger! You've tried to hem us in. Cut off vital supplies. Strangle our trade. You've been asking for war!"

Kirk: "You're the ones who issued the ultimatum to withdraw from the disputed areas!"

Kor: "They're not disputed! They're clearly ours!"

The lines in that last section seem the most relevant to DSC. "They've invaded our territory. Killed our citizens." Fits Season 1, especially episodes like "The Butcher's Knife". The disputed areas can very well refer to all the space seized by the Klingons prior to "The War Without, The War Within". If it was as messy as I think it is, they might've stopped the war, but negotiations and disputes over every piece of territory could drag on for the entire 10 years leading up to "Errand of Mercy".

All the earlier lines make it sound like Kirk has first-hand experience with the Klingons. Whereas nothing Spock says indicates he does one way or the other. This fits with the Enterprise not being part of the Klingon War, but also still leaves wiggle room for SNW in case anything happens in the interim.
 
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I quoted everything from "Errand of Mercy" a little while ago, that I thought would be relevant. Let me see, if I can find it. I didn't know if Kirk fought in a Klingon War, but he definitely has some experience dealing with them. It doesn't sound like it's his first time around the block.

I'm ambivalent about the Klingon War vis-a-vis TOS. On the one hand, yes, it's clear enough that the TOS characters have some painful history with the Klingons, that there's been active conflict in the past and a lot of reason for enmity. On the other hand, the scale of the Klingon War in DSC, getting so bad that the Klingons conquered a major portion of the Federation and got so close to Earth that they occupied Starbase One, is difficult to reconcile with "The Infinite Vulcan" and TWOK both saying that Starfleet had kept the peace for the preceding century.

So maybe there was a Klingon conflict in the TOS version of the timeline, but it wasn't as massive as the one in DSC.
 
Fair enough, though that is not the impression I got reading that thread.

Well, whether it’s the thread or the individual post, a spoiler tag is a spoiler tag. This particular thread kind of took off before @Nyotarules or I were able to catch it. The thread tag was the best we could do.

What would really be great is if people would discuss SNW in its own forum.

:techman:
 
Kirk: Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organized into vast slave labor camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed. Your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal colony. Infinitely better off.
Kirk: We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons. They've invaded our territory. Killed our citizens. They're openly aggressive. They've boasted they'll take over half the galaxy!
Thanks for the additional context. I remembered Kirk saying that he'd seen what Klingons did to planets like Organia, but that didn't necessarily mean he'd been at war with them, just that he'd seen the aftermath of Klingon occupation on other planets.

But "They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens" is certainly a lot less ambiguous. That's absolutely describing war. I wonder if Gene Coon intended that to be referring to something that just happened (the anticipated sneak attack from the teaser) or if he meant the Federation had been at war with the Klingons before.

At the very least, the UFP and the Klingons have had skirmishes before. I just remembered this bit of dialogue from Spock at the beginning of "The Trouble with Tribbles":
KIRK: Mister Spock, immediate past history of the quadrant?
SPOCK: Under dispute between the two parties since initial contact. The battle of Donatu V was fought near here 23 solar years ago. Inconclusive.
KIRK: Analysis of disputed area?
SPOCK: Undeveloped. Sherman's Planet is claimed by both sides, our Federation and the Klingon Empire. We do have the better claim.
So I suppose I'm more or less agreeing with Christopher here. If there ever was a formal war with the Klingons before TOS, it likely wasn't as devastating and extensive as what DSC showed us. I guess I'm picturing something more Cold War like, a long rivalry between the two powers with a fair amount of close calls like the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Which was more likely the intent than anything, as the Klingons started out as several Communist tropes mashed together, with a bit of Nazism mixed in.
 
The real question for me is how does this change the impact the stories. Is there really any difference between the Eugenics Wars happening in 1992 or 2042 in the terms of story? Are the plots of Space Seed or TWOK altered by that change? Is Khan different. Is his fate somehow altered? Are the events as we know them changed? How about the actions of Kirk and crew? Is there any impact on future stories? I say no. The dates are irrelevant to the story. Chosen because they are/were in our future. Now those dates are are past. So yes, lets move these fictional events up the time. When other dates cross from future into past do the same. Story over "data points".
 
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The real question for me is how does this change the impact the stories. Is there really any difference between the Eugenics Wars happening in 1992 or 2042 in the terms of story? Are the plots of Space Seed or TWOK altered by that change? Is Khan different. Is his fate somehow altered? Are the events as we know them changed? How about the actions of Kirk and crew? Is there any impact on future stories? I say no. The dates are irrelevant to the story. Chosen because they are/were in our future. Now those dates are are past. So yes, lets move these fictional events up the time. When other dates cross from future into past do the same. Story over "data points".

IMG_4944.jpeg
 
Actually, my comments take into account TOS Chapel as a person and not a cardboard cutout. TOS Chapel is my mother-in-law, and a few other women from the Boomer generation that I know.
I guess not the drug taking, consciousness-expanding, war protesting, bra burning, rock and rolling Boomers. :) Chapel seems more of my own mother's generation. The so called "Silent Generation". More June Cleaver and Harriet Nelson than Anne Marie and Julie Barnes.
Fun fact Majel Barrett once played Lumpy Rutherford's mom on "Leave It To Beaver".
 
The real question for me is how does this change the impact the stories. Is there really any difference between the Eugenics Wars happening in 1992 or 2042 in the terms of story? Are the plots of Space Seed or TWOK altered by that change? Is Khan different. Is his fate somehow altered? Are the events as we know them changed? How about the actions of Kirk and crew? Is there any impact on future stories? I say no. The dates are irrelevant to the story. Chosen because they are/were in our future. Now those dates are are past. So yes, lets move these fictional events up the time. When other dates cross from future into past do the same. Story over "data points".
I think you're right, if for no other reason than who would want the blowback from saying TWOK and "Space Seed" didn't happen in the way we saw them? There's no real upside to saying two of the most beloved segments of Star Trek "don't count" anymore. So yeah, just pretend they said "the 2040s" instead of "the 1990s," or whatever.

And actually, I just thought of an advantage to moving Khan & the Eugenics Wars forward in time to the 21st Century: This dialogue from "Space Seed" and TWOK now works better with the official ST Timeline, as the time gap from the launch of the Botany Bay is now a lot closer to two centuries than three:
KHAN: How long?
KIRK: How long have you been sleeping? Two centuries we estimate.
KHAN: I remember a voice. Did I hear it say I had been sleeping for two centuries?
MCCOY: That is correct.
KHAN: Where is your Captain? I have many questions.
KHAN: This is Ceti Alpha Five! Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress. It was only the fact of my genetically engineered intellect that enabled us to survive. On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince, with power over millions.
 
I think you're right, if for no other reason than who would want the blowback from saying TWOK and "Space Seed" didn't happen in the way we saw them? There's no real upside to saying two of the most beloved segments of Star Trek "don't count" anymore. So yeah, just pretend they said "the 2040s" instead of "the 1990s" or whatever.

And actually, I just thought of an advantage to moving Khan & the Eugenics Wars forward in time to the 21st Century: This dialogue from "Space Seed" and TWOK now works better with the official ST Timeline, as the gap is now a lot closer to two centuries than three:
Yep. Season One vagueness on when TOS happened. Now it works.
 
Is there any impact on future stories? I say no. The dates are irrelevant to the story. Chosen because they are/were in our future. Now those dates are are past. So yes, lets move these fictional events up the time. When other dates cross from future into past do the same. Story over "data points".

Yes. In much the same way that aspects of character have been updated for modern times -- Number One is no longer a '60s stereotype of a woman who can function in a man's world because she suppresses her femininity and acts icy and emotionless, and Chapel's relationship with Spock is more equal and empowering to her than an unrequited crush. (I'm not counting "The Cage" Pike's issue with women on the bridge because that was cut from "The Menagerie" and thus wasn't canonical anyway.) You keep the parts that still work today and change the parts that don't.
 
As Akiva Goldsman explained it in the interview, it's not about getting the facts and figures to line up; it's about showing the audience something that feels like it could be in their own future, that's close enough to reality that they can imagine working to build something similar. The more distant the present feels from their own present, the less connection they make to it and the less relevant it feels to their own reality. It's not about getting every detail right, just about the overall impression it gives. It's about making it a reasonably close metaphor for our world, close enough to feel aspirational, rather than something so alternate that it feels detached from the audience's lives.
I just disagree with Goldsman's justification and find it really lacking. We don't live in a world where the Vulcans gave us Velcro, dinosaurs escaped to the Delta Quadrant, or (to cite something that Akiva Goldsman just put forward in Picard season 2) we're launching manned space missions to Europa.

I mean what's the fundamental difference between creating a narrative with an Earth that has manned space flight throughout the solar system in the present-day, and having to live with a 56-year old story about a fictional war in 1992? They're both alternate timelines with events the audience just has to go with. The latter is something that has been baked into Star Trek for decades. The idea that a modern audience can't connect with Star Trek because it's too much to ask that Khan escaped to space in 1996 is like saying Doctor Who fans can't make a connection because the Daleks didn't invade London in the 1960s.

Moreover, I just feel like this is a "correction" for a problem that doesn't exist, and the time Star Trek spends navel gazing trying to fix its past would be better spent creating new characters, new antagonists, new places through which one can examine ideas and issues. Instead of constantly fiddling with the Gorn, Khan, etc., add on to the franchise’s narrative instead of reinterpreting what’s come before.
 
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