This sounds like it would bore me stiff.
Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?
- Thread starter HaplessCrewman
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Agree.
Kirk is quite capable of bluffing (see 'The Corbomite Maneuver') but not this time. If the writers wanted the viewers to believe Kirk was bluffing, there would be a scene saying so.
But, if it comforts you to think it is a plot (or a ploy), feel free to do so.
Kirk is quite capable of bluffing (see 'The Corbomite Maneuver') but not this time. If the writers wanted the viewers to believe Kirk was bluffing, there would be a scene saying so.
But, if it comforts you to think it is a plot (or a ploy), feel free to do so.
Exactly.
I never interpreted "condition green" as a bluff. It's a code word signifying trouble at the speaker's end, but the receiver is to avoid an aggressive response.
On the contrary, the point of "A Taste of Armageddon" is that the threat of real Armageddon provides the necessary incentive to live in peace. Mitigating the threat only fosters war. The whole point, that peace is the only way, is lost if there is no General Order 24.
It was most certainly a bluff that the code wasn't understood. Kirk spoke it right in front of people who might well have killed him if they had realized that he was speaking in code. (Edit - I mean, if they had realized that the code was not what it appeared. It's obviously a code, but the intent of the code is that green will be assumed to mean "all clear". Hence, the bluff.)
That might be a better example, but I didn't mention it because it wasn't while on a landing party.
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The Federation doesn't even have the death penalty for the most despicable crimes, so it's hard to believe Starfleet still has an Order like that, one that it will actually follow.
TNG era tended to show technobabble solutions to but other shows seem to say that the reason why the Fed's utopia exists at all is because of someone else's dirty work .
We need Trek to be Utopian because it gives us something to hope for, and that was the main message of the show.
But at the same time stuff like General 24 seems exciting--let's face it, that was a bad-assed speech Scotty gave.
But sometimes the characters seem unbelievably naive-- Dr Bashir wanted to give the Dominion a planet with all the materials needed to produce White for their soldiers.
They were running out...but Bashir was afraid they would launch a massive attack and that the resulting fighting would cause massive casualties for both sides.
I mean, worried about casualities on the enemy side??
I just pointed out in another thread how in Chain of Command, Beverly Crusher was determined to believe that a Cardassian fleet hiding in a Nebulae, was there only for scientific research.
It's so weird how we need the Utopia, but at the same time, some of the values seem unrealistic or impractical for situations like war.
TNG era tended to show technobabble solutions to but other shows seem to say that the reason why the Fed's utopia exists at all is because of someone else's dirty work .
We need Trek to be Utopian because it gives us something to hope for, and that was the main message of the show.
But at the same time stuff like General 24 seems exciting--let's face it, that was a bad-assed speech Scotty gave.
But sometimes the characters seem unbelievably naive-- Dr Bashir wanted to give the Dominion a planet with all the materials needed to produce White for their soldiers.
They were running out...but Bashir was afraid they would launch a massive attack and that the resulting fighting would cause massive casualties for both sides.
I mean, worried about casualities on the enemy side??
I just pointed out in another thread how in Chain of Command, Beverly Crusher was determined to believe that a Cardassian fleet hiding in a Nebulae, was there only for scientific research.
It's so weird how we need the Utopia, but at the same time, some of the values seem unrealistic or impractical for situations like war.
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Space. The final shakedown. These are the voyages of the starship Alonzo Harris. A five-year mission to smoke all that is smokable, mack all that is mackable, and generally howl like a mutha@#!#$in' wolf, son.
Thinkin' Da Fleet gonna have difficulties with NCC 007, The Harris, smokin' and mackin' and howlin'
...but I like it!!!!!...permission to come aboard!?!?!
Here's an interesting bit of curiosity. It's an early story outline for "Operation: Annihilate." What's interesting is that in this version Kirk actually does destroy all life on Deneva to prevent any further spread of the parasites. http://www.missionlogpodcast.com/discovereddocuments/029/
Evidently this outline predates the version James Blish used for his adaptation of the story in which the Enterprise finds and destroys the home world of the parasites.
Evidently this outline predates the version James Blish used for his adaptation of the story in which the Enterprise finds and destroys the home world of the parasites.
That episode is called "Operation -- Annihilate" after all.
Do you mean thematically the point would be lost or plot-wise?
With respect to what I said there, thematically, certainly. The assertion in the final paragraph of MLB's post that "it doesn't matter that it's fake" is the one I'm contradicting.
But there's a strong case that it matters to the plot as well. Ambassador Fox hasn't been all the way on board with Kirk's cowboy diplomacy. Would Kirk risk the Ambassador contradicting Kirk or accidentally giving him away, by invoking a phony General Order, threatening genocide, of all things? No, I don't believe that Kirk would take a foolish gamble like that, something at which Fox might balk, with both the success of the mission and all their lives at stake.
It matters every bit to the plot, as well as to theme, but the theme is what's of primary importance.
Wow!!!...very cool find...but do you really think he would do it?...I mean, really?...with his penchant for cheating death and finding ways...and would Star Fleet really give him that unconditional power?...Jeez, IDK...but very very cool find...
But, waaaaaaayyyyyyyy back to the Thread's Original Question,
"...does GO 24 exist in the world of TNG?"
...after very careful reading of all your learned comments, and filtering what I know and feel to be true I say NO and go further to say that even if it was, Picard would never obey such an order...
...not to say that such an order could not be given in a specific circumstance, but as a "Standing" nature...
...thus spaketh the Armchair Admiral...
"...does GO 24 exist in the world of TNG?"
...after very careful reading of all your learned comments, and filtering what I know and feel to be true I say NO and go further to say that even if it was, Picard would never obey such an order...
...not to say that such an order could not be given in a specific circumstance, but as a "Standing" nature...
...thus spaketh the Armchair Admiral...
With "hellburner missiles," if my now-ancient memory of the Blish book is correct.
Hellburner missiles, for when photon torpedoes aren't badass enough. Me likey.
Evidently the idea of Kirk destroying an entire planet with one million innocents didn't sit well with GR and the rest of the writing staff. It also might have been something that would have gone down hard with viewers. The subsequent idea of destroying the home world of the parasites also didn't survive, and I can understand why. It doesn't have the same dramatic impact as what we got onscreen.
Wow!!!...very cool find...but do you really think he would do it?...I mean, really?...with his penchant for cheating death and finding ways...and would Star Fleet really give him that unconditional power?...Jeez, IDK...but very very cool find...
In television and even film events in a story can have different impact than they do in print. Even so the James Blish adaptation where they destroy the parasite homeworld is interesting, but it doesn't have the aired version's dramatic punch. The aired version makes it personal for Kirk by involving his family and Spock's suffering. The earlier outlines are largely missing those things.
The only reasoning I can see for destroying a planet and/or all life on it is if there is a dire threat that cannot be contained.
Kirk always had confidence that Scotty would never have to carry out General Order 24.
He had worked out that both sides would do anything to avoid the horror of a real war. There was no chance it was going to happen.
That's why Spock didn't try to get Kirk to rescind the order. And Scotty had faith in Kirk as he was there on the ground and knew the situation. He was probably hoping that he would never have to carry out the order but for all he knew the situation warranted it.
Just the threat of General Order 24 and the landing team's sabotage was enough to start the negotiations. Without General Order 24 (or the threat of it) maybe those negotiations wouldn't have taken place.
As for Picard. He followed Orders to the letter. If General Order 24 existed and he were ordered/needed to use it he would have to. If the population of a planet needed to be destroyed to save the rest of the galaxy then it might be Picard's duty to carry out General Order 24.
He had worked out that both sides would do anything to avoid the horror of a real war. There was no chance it was going to happen.
That's why Spock didn't try to get Kirk to rescind the order. And Scotty had faith in Kirk as he was there on the ground and knew the situation. He was probably hoping that he would never have to carry out the order but for all he knew the situation warranted it.
Just the threat of General Order 24 and the landing team's sabotage was enough to start the negotiations. Without General Order 24 (or the threat of it) maybe those negotiations wouldn't have taken place.
As for Picard. He followed Orders to the letter. If General Order 24 existed and he were ordered/needed to use it he would have to. If the population of a planet needed to be destroyed to save the rest of the galaxy then it might be Picard's duty to carry out General Order 24.
I don't think so. He had the very Prime Directive telling him to let the rubicuns kill Wesley (not to mention the support of the entire fanbase) -- and he didn't just because it was his squeeze's boy. What's a mere general order to him.
I'm wondering if the Prime Directive did apply on the planet of few clothes? Obviously there was a highly advanced entity in charge of the planet so I think all bets are off. Wasn't it the advanced entity who demanded Wesley's death?
In fact maybe Picard and the Federation should be thinking about freeing that planet from its brutal overlord. I'm thinking the primitive natives of that planet live in fear of that entity if walking on the grass and other such minor crimes are punishable by death.
Still you may have a point. The two occasions where Picard wasn't lecturing everyone about the sanctity of the Prime Directive was here and in INS where he fancied the beautiful Anji.
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