Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

[Shat Happens]

I'd like to see G.O. 24 being carried out somewhere just for kicks.

I find this thread strangely and loosely related to a joke I saw in other site :

http://prokopetz.tumblr.com/post/57702943181/mikhailvladimirovich-bogleech-its-funny-how

 

[Vandervecken]

... their attempted genocide would have resulted in billions more casualties.

Their "attempted genocide" is one of the prime reasons the war ended when it did.

Yeah, the virus used on the noncombatant Founders was the primary reason not the armada of Federation allied ships over Cardassia that blew through the Dominion armada between Cardassia and DS9.

Would the Federation and their allies eventually have defeated the Dominion?

Maybe.

There is no maybe the war was pretty much over at that point all the Dominion was going to do was go out in the blaze of glory which was likely motivated by the Founders dying, so Section 31 could have caused the war to almost end in a blood bath.

I wouldn't classify any of the Founders as civilians. Every last one of them is the ruling elite of the Dominion.

Your own point is that the Dominion was losing anyway, because their forces in the Alpha Quadrant were cut off from any resupply from the Gamma Quadrant. THAT was their reason for potentially choosing to go out in a "blaze of glory," not that S31 had doomed them. They didn't even know that the Feds (through S31) were responsible for the disease.

If the disease had been allowed to run its course, a vicious political unit of the galaxy would have collapsed. The Dominion would NEVER have ceased to be a threat to the entire Alpha Quadrant. It never will as long as it exists, and it'll exist as long as the Founders do.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Sisko did not do a proper environmental impact study before using WMD. Sisko has never thought out his actions sufficiently, which makes him the least good captain of Trek.

How could he be sure his toxin only affected humans? Does roundup only affect weeds? Does DDT only affect mosquitos?

There is a very good chance he may have killed one or more unique species on that planet. Humans are expendable next to a whole species.

If he wanted to kill maquis he should have released radioactive iodine to give everyone thyroid cancer on the assumption the native life or Cardassian do not use iodine biologically.

 

[Clark Terrell]

Sisko has never thought out his actions sufficiently, which makes him the least good captain of Trek.

Never? Are you sure? I'd be careful making statements like this.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The TOS heroes never shied away from genocide. Nipping the enemy in the bud and being done with it was a sound and solid tactical approach, at least when dealing with the Space Amoeba, the Doomsday Machine, the Dikironium Cloud, the Salt Vampire...

Neither of those qualify as genocide. Kirk was justified in each and every one of those cases, because they were all examples of one life form (or machine) being a direct threat to his ship and crew. They attacked the Enterprise, giving Kirk the absolute right to kill them. Self-defense is all the reason he needed.

The fact that in those cases, the entities involved were the last of their kind? Not Kirk's problem. He would not have killed them if they had not attacked. Kirk didn't intend to wipe out a race, he intended to save his ship and crew - which is his right.

 

[Clark Terrell]

The fact that in those cases, the entities involved were the last of their kind? Not Kirk's problem. He would not have killed them if they had not attacked. Kirk didn't intend to wipe out a race, he intended to save his ship and crew - which is his right.

Not only his right, but also his obligation. For a starship captain, there's no more important duty. Kirk was killing those creatures for sport. He did it because they'd already harmed innocent people, be it members of his crew or civilians unable to defend themselves.

 

[Warped9]

The original story for "Operation: Annihilate" had a quite different ending than the one filmed. The original ending can be found in James Blish's adaptation of the episode.

In the original ending the Enterprise was to have tracked the alien parasites back to their planet of origin. And upon arrival proceeded to destroy the planet.

I don't know if it would have been General Oder 24, but it is what they were effectively doing.

Also in "A Taste Of Amageedon" Scotty says they've targeted all the major installations. They don't have to actually kill everyone on the planet or even that many (comparatively). They just have to destroy major power facilities and infrastructure and military installations and then let nature take its course as countless die in the aftermath.

 

[Timo]

Self-defense gives the absolute right to kill? What sort of a deranged mutant barbarian are you?

Eminians attacked Kirk, too. According to your disgusting worldview, killing them all should definitely be all right.

FWIW, Kirk explicitly has no right to save his life or that or his crew at any cost. He has sworn an oath to DIE to defend Federation values, and that doesn't mean he can substitute "kill" for "die" whenever he pleases.

Kirk was killing those creatures for sport.

Indeed he was, but I suspect you forgot a negative here.

He did it because they'd already harmed innocent people, be it members of his crew or civilians unable to defend themselves.

Vengeance is for barbarians. What Kirk did was kill the last known examples of previously unencountered threat species, thereby achieving absolutely nothing but grievously harming the ability of the UFP to defend itself against further attacks from these species.

Because species they were. The Space Amoeba was preparing to multiply, meaning the galaxy may well be full of Space Amoebae, and the futile attempt at genocide just deprived Starfleet of key intelligence. We don't know if the DDM can self-replicate, but pretending that it's the only one of its kind is likely to be fatal. Etc.

Also in "A Taste Of Amageedon" Scotty says they've targeted all the major installations. They don't have to actually kill everyone on the planet or even that many (comparatively). They just have to destroy major power facilities and infrastructure and military installations and then let nature take its course as countless die in the aftermath.

Quite. And the manner in which Scotty executes the order means it is highly effective blackmail: he can slowly ramp it up, with just expendable industrial hardware being destroyed first, then a few thousand people dying, then a few million, until the victim realizes Starfleet means business. Whether that's what GO24 explicitly states, or whether that's what Kirk knew Scotty would be clever enough to do, we don't know. But I'd wager both.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Clark Terrell]

Self-defense gives the absolute right to kill? What sort of a deranged mutant barbarian are you?

Calm down. I don't think that's what Mr. Laser Beam meant at all. And what's with the name-calling?

Eminians attacked Kirk, too. According to your disgusting worldview, killing them all should definitely be all right.

When did he say that was his worldview?

FWIW, Kirk explicitly has no right to save his life or that or his crew at any cost. He has sworn an oath to DIE to defend Federation values, and that doesn't mean he can substitute "kill" for "die" whenever he pleases.

Nor is anyone arguing that he can. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't act to save his ship and crew when he's able, provided that he does so within the confines of his position as a starship captain.

 

[Timo]

Self-defense gives the absolute right to kill? What sort of a deranged mutant barbarian are you?

Calm down. I don't think that's what Mr. Laser Beam meant at all. And what's with the name-calling?

If he did mean what he wrote, he doesn't deserve name-calling, but a shot through the head. That sort of scum shouldn't be allowed to live.

If he didn't, I withdraw my accusation. But no apologies, for the very ambiguity there is disgusting enough.

(No, I know Mr Laser Beam well enough to insist he does not really deserve a bullet through the head. But I can't let statements like that stand, not even until the next reply.)

FWIW, Kirk explicitly has no right to save his life or that or his crew at any cost. He has sworn an oath to DIE to defend Federation values, and that doesn't mean he can substitute "kill" for "die" whenever he pleases.

Nor is anyone arguing that he can. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't act to save his ship and crew when he's able, provided that he does so within the confines of his position as a starship captain.[/QUOTE]

Quite so. And going for genocide is often a necessary step in protecting something as big as the UFP against threats as fantastic as those cropping up in Star Trek, but protecting a mere starship will usually have to be conducted by less drastic measures.

Out of the four cases of killing the last known example of a species, fleeing rather than fighting back was an option in three.

The death of the Salt Vampire came in the heat of the moment, though, and would have called for much more disciplined minds if the fatal outcome were to be avoided.

Fleeing the Space Amoeba was certainly an option, while going after it was necessary because of the clear, present and imminent danger of the creature wreaking further havoc - even though Kirk didn't really have realistic hopes of achieving anything, considering the Intrepid had already failed and was deemed equal of the Enterprise.

Hunting after the dikironium cloud was pure sport, and tactical withdrawal and regrouping would certainly have been in order: no imminent further danger came from the creature in that episode.

The Doomsday Machine would certainly have warranted further study, but a series of poor tactical choices deprived Kirk of the option of flight early on. Failing to flee towards the end of the episode was stupid, though, as there was no indication Kirk couldn't outrun the beast to the next vulnerable target and face it with backup from fifty other fighting vessels, all informed about the capabilities of the beast. "She's heading for the Rigel colonies!" didn't really create any tactical immediacy there.

Issues of self-defense vs. self-sacrifice surface more prominently in episodes like "The Apple", where Kirk would certainly have the option of yielding to Vaal, or "Return of the Archons", where he could yield to Landru. Apparently, the latter case wouldn't even be the end of his crew (although it might be a fate worse than death). Shooting one's way out of trouble sounds heroic, but when it means shooting your way through a planet-sized crowd of innocents, it's a very different matter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If he did mean what he wrote, he doesn't deserve name-calling, but a shot through the head. That sort of scum shouldn't be allowed to live.

I don't take well to threats against my life. Just so you know.

 

[1001001]

Self-defense gives the absolute right to kill? What sort of a deranged mutant barbarian are you?

Calm down. I don't think that's what Mr. Laser Beam meant at all. And what's with the name-calling?

If he did mean what he wrote, he doesn't deserve name-calling, but a shot through the head. That sort of scum shouldn't be allowed to live.

If he didn't, I withdraw my accusation. But no apologies, for the very ambiguity there is disgusting enough.

(No, I know Mr Laser Beam well enough to insist he does not really deserve a bullet through the head. But I can't let statements like that stand, not even until the next reply.)

What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is going here? Seriously?



Timo you've got an infraction for flaming. And Mr. Laser Beam, I understand you were provoked, but don't respond with internet tough guy crap, mkay? Just let us handle it.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I stand by my point about all of those alien creatures previously mentioned.

In each and every one of those instances, Kirk was faced with an immediate and direct threat. Any delay could have cost lives. There was no time to stop and consider the fact that the space amoeba, salt vampire, doomsday machine, etc. were the last of their kind. The only option was to strike back with deadly force. There was no option of "wounding" rather than killing - either Kirk acts to destroy those threats, or they kill him and everyone else on the ship.

It's the same as if I am faced with a home invasion in which the attacker has a large weapon pointed at me and he will fire. I have the absolute - yes, absolute - right to defend my life. Same story here.

Obviously if there had been any way out of the aforementioned situations which didn't involve killing the attackers, Kirk would have found it. But there was no such way out. There was no time. The threat was immediate and deadly.

 

[T'Girl]

Their "attempted genocide" is one of the prime reasons the war ended when it did.

Yeah, the virus used on the noncombatant Founders was the primary reason

Yes, it was. The sickness (and the cure to it) were the reason the war ended when it did.

not the armada of Federation allied ships over Cardassia that blew through the Dominion armada between Cardassia and DS9.

EKOOR: The Federation fleet has surrounded the planet.
KIRA: I want you to contact the Jem'Hadar and the Breen, and you order their ships to stand down.
GARAK: And order their troops on Cardassia to do the same.

FOUNDER: I will do no such thing.

No, it wasn't the combined forces facing the Founder that ended the war when it did.

There is no maybe the war was pretty much over at that point

Not just yet, there was more death and suffering to come, unless the Founder agreed to surrender, which she wasn't doing.

...all the Dominion was going to do was go out in the blaze of glory

FOUNDER: Isn't it obvious? You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat.

This is why I keep emphasizing the phrase "when it did."

... which was likely motivated by the Founders dying, so Section 31 could have caused the war to almost end in a blood bath.

Here your logic isn't apparent.

If the Dominion War was the same, except no sickness and cure, why would the Founder surrender when she did? The Founders still feared the solids, they require a further motivation to stop. And what motivation was that? The cure to the sickness that all the Founders had.

The Founders cared nothing for the Breen, the Cardassians, not even the Jemhadar. But they did care for themselves.

As soon as the cure was demonstrated, the Founder said this ...

FOUNDER: I'll order the Jem'Hadar to cease fire

The old carrot and the stick.

The cure was the carrot.
Withholding it was the stick.

the Dominion was going to do was go out in the blaze of glory which was likely motivated by the Founders dying

No, the motivation was to keep the solid out of the gamma quad.

... so Section 31 could have caused the war to almost end in a blood bath.

No, S31's actions gave the Founder a reason to surrender, to gain the cure for the sickness. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for the Founder not to have gone ahead with the "blaze of glory."

The cure became first priority.

You see, it was never really about genocide, it was about manipulating the Founders.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Sisko has never thought out his actions sufficiently, which makes him the least good captain of Trek.

Never? Are you sure? I'd be careful making statements like this.

When was he in smart mode? Boxing Q seems very poor judgement.

 

[Clark Terrell]

When was he in smart mode? Boxing Q seems very poor judgement.

I don't know. Q was surprised Sisko hit him.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

doomsday machine,

While I tend to agree with you, for the record the Doomsday Machine was I believe said to have been a mindless robot vessel so it wasn't any kind of form of life.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

doomsday machine,

While I tend to agree with you, for the record the Doomsday Machine was I believe said to have been a mindless robot vessel so it wasn't any kind of form of life.

That was Spock's theory based on the Constellation's records, and he's one of the best science officers in Starfleet, if not the best. Kirk extended Spock's deductions to cover the rationale for building such a device.

Decker seemed to think that the object might be alive, both life form and ship, or maybe neither. He'd had a mental breakdown, though, so his breakdown, coupled with all the time he'd spent in guilt-ridden reflection, might be responsible for why he thought that. However, perhaps Constellation officers considered the possibility that the object was alive in their briefings.

Regardless of what Kirk, Spock, or Decker may have been certain of at the time of events, we have out-of-universe reasons to conclude that it really was as Kirk and Spock theorized: a doomsday machine. Number one reason is the episode's title! Number two reason is that their theories were the last word in the episode of the planet killer's nature.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

"Yo captain, I'm detecting mass quantities of player hate in this sector."

"Superlative, Numbah One, let's get crunk with General Order 24 and blow up their busted-ass planet."

 

[PhoenixClass]

Given that a core part of Starfleet's mission is to seek out new life and make peaceful contact with new species, I think that General Order 24 is an anachronism even in Kirk's time, let alone the 24th century. Destroying a whole planet is an extreme action. Could be possibly conceive of a situation in which it would be moral to do so? I'm sure we could, but it would be a most unusual and extreme situation.