Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

[Clark Terrell]

No, actually, they don't, because - like I said - Section 31 don't answer to the Federation. Section 31 does, quite literally, whatever it wants to. That's not "working for" anybody, by any definition of the phrase.

I think T'Girl's trying to say that they work toward advancing Federation interests despite not being an official part of their government. Sort of like militia groups claiming to be acting in defense of the United States.

 

[F. King Daniel]

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill established that the Eminiar Amendment to the Federation Charter had banned the destruction of a planet (and by default rescinded General Order 24) by the time of TNG.

Let's hope it's not the death of them one day. There's some dangerous stuff out there.

^ Because they're a rogue bunch of criminal terrorists, that's why. They don't even work for the Federation - they just do whatever they want. They're accountable to NO ONE.

That's what the Federation wants you to think

 

[Push The Button]

(S31) They don't even work for the Federation ...

Debateably they don't work for the Federation's governing body, however they do work for the Federation itself, unofficial protectors.

I read about a deleted scene ...

I've never heard of this scene. Was it filmed and then discarded, or was it from a preliminary script?

Orionpressfanzines lists it as an "unaired scene" from an earlier version of the script, so not sure if it was actually filmed or not:

This dialogue between Scotty and McCoy was trimmed as well. Scotty has already gotten the command from Kirk to implement General Order 24 and has moved the Enterprise out of range of Eminiar's planetary defense systems:

INT. BRIDGE

Scott is sitting silently in the command seat. McCoy stands by, staring sympathetically at him. There is a long moment of silence.

McCOY
Are you going to do it?

SCOTT
You heard the captain. The order was clear.

McCOY
They'll die down there.

SCOTT
Blast you, McCoy! Don't you think I know that?

McCoy stares at him, shakes his head, turns away and stands there silently, staring at nothing. The bridge is totally silent.

 

[HIjol]

IMO, Starfleet would not hesitate to have the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few if there was an imminent threat on a solar system/galactic scale that was truly irrefutable and truly imminent...however, of course it would not be SOP, and I wonder if a Captain of a Star Ship would be given sole decision-making ability...unless at the utmost end of need with no ability to confirm or communicate...

...hmmmm....sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie!?!?!?

 

[Xerxes1979]

Sisko poisoned the entire biosphere of planet and nothing ever became of it. Only something like a general order 24 would have saved his ass from a war crimes trial.

How did that man sleep at night? I am sure a maquis camper or elder died as a result of the WMD attack. Since Starfleet info on the maquis was grossly inadequate it was never a morally correct assumption to believe they could evacuate a civilian population before ill health or death set in.

 

[Clark Terrell]

IMO, Starfleet would not hesitate to have the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few if there was an imminent threat on a solar system/galactic scale that was truly irrefutable and truly imminent...however, of course it would not be SOP, and I wonder if a Captain of a Star Ship would be given sole decision-making ability...unless at the utmost end of need with no ability to confirm or communicate...

...hmmmm....sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie!?!?!?

Yes, but it's also similar to the premise that gave us "The Alternative Factor," with Kirk being the sole man on the front lines against an impending invasion of his universe by the inhabitants of the anti-matter universe-- and the certain total, complete annihilation that was sure to follow.

 

[Timo]

The TOS heroes never shied away from genocide. Nipping the enemy in the bud and being done with it was a sound and solid tactical approach, at least when dealing with the Space Amoeba, the Doomsday Machine, the Dikironium Cloud, the Salt Vampire...

You get the picture. Saying that genocide is bad is pretentious and disgusting if it's only supposed to apply on cuddly things like humans.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

No way to ever know. The 24th century is gone...

I don't know what this means.

I'm pretty sure it's a dig at JJ-Trek.

Huh? I love the Abramsverse films. My point was that no more live-action material is coming where the 24th century is concerned.

So there is no way we'll ever know.

 

[Timo]

Well, Spock Prime can always utter a few illuminating phrases about how things were so much better back when he was only middle-aged, two centuries in the future...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HIjol]

IMO, Starfleet would not hesitate to have the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few if there was an imminent threat on a solar system/galactic scale that was truly irrefutable and truly imminent...however, of course it would not be SOP, and I wonder if a Captain of a Star Ship would be given sole decision-making ability...unless at the utmost end of need with no ability to confirm or communicate...

...hmmmm....sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie!?!?!?

Yes, but it's also similar to the premise that gave us "The Alternative Factor," with Kirk being the sole man on the front lines against an impending invasion of his universe by the inhabitants of the anti-matter universe-- and the certain total, complete annihilation that was sure to follow.

Agreed, but in "The Alternative Factor", Star Fleet was aware and had time/impetus to send Kirk investigate...and his "final solution" did not destroy or kill...

 

[HIjol]

Sisko poisoned the entire biosphere of planet and nothing ever became of it. Only something like a general order 24 would have saved his ass from a war crimes trial.

How did that man sleep at night? I am sure a maquis camper or elder died as a result of the WMD attack. Since Starfleet info on the maquis was grossly inadequate it was never a morally correct assumption to believe they could evacuate a civilian population before ill health or death set in.

Sisko did not kill anyone with the strike...it was only fatal to humans, and lasted only 50 years...and he did it in retaliation for and to force the surrender of a terrorist who was targeting Maquis...

 

[Runetouch]

Probably not. Starfleet in the TNG era was a lot more utopian then in the 23rd Century.

 

[Timo]

Sisko did not kill anyone with the strike..

This is never confirmed in dialogue. All we learn is that he thought he would not. Then again, he also thought he was bombarding a "Maquis planet" - a conceptual whopper of his own concocting, as previously nobody had suggested that any of the DMZ worlds would actually have Maquis members or supporters as a significant minority, let alone a majority. It's a bit like Putin "justly" nuking out all of the US of A because it's factually known to be the nation of Tim McVeighs... And trusting that the inhabitants can still make a clean getaway because the NSA will have overheard Russia planning the nuclear strike and Americans have lots of aircraft.

If everybody down on the planet is a hardened freedom fighter, then 100% of them scampering into their ships in time to escape gruesome death is a defensible assumption. After all, hardened fighters would certainly be prepared to flee a Cardassian attack - why not a Starfleet one? But that's rather unlikely to be the case, unless we are not being told the whole story about the sudden emergence of "Maquis planets".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vandervecken]

^ Because they're a rogue bunch of criminal terrorists, that's why. They don't even work for the Federation - they just do whatever they want. They're accountable to NO ONE.

Section 31 is probably the reason that the Federation managed to survive at all to the 24th Century. They're patriots, and the best kind of patriots: effective patriots.

Federation values. Bah. The values of suicide before survival.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Starfleet would never target civilians with a military strike.

I can possibly see them doing it for an unpopulated planet where they know to be an enemy military base.

Section 31 may be patriots by the strictest sense of the term but that doesn't mean the ends justify the means cloak and dagger justice is the reason they survive, or that it would be in any way acceptable if it were. It seems to me like section 31 has accomplished more in terms of expanding Federation influence than it has actually protecting it. If it weren't for Bashir finding the cure, their attempted genocide would have resulted in billions more casualties.

Section 31 = Tal Shiar = Obsidian Order = Stargate Rogue NID = Mass Effect Cerberus = NSA. Institutions better at expanding influence and imperialism than protecting the realm and leaving a whole lot of vulnerability if they are ever infiltrated or revealed.

 

[Vandervecken]

Starfleet would never target civilians with a military strike.

I can possibly see them doing it for an unpopulated planet where they know to be an enemy military base.

Section 31 may be patriots by the strictest sense of the term but that doesn't mean the ends justify the means cloak and dagger justice is the reason they survive, or that it would be in any way acceptable if it were. It seems to me like section 31 has accomplished more in terms of expanding Federation influence than it has actually protecting it. If it weren't for Bashir finding the cure, their attempted genocide would have resulted in billions more casualties.

I disagree with this viewpoint fundamentally when survival is at stake. The ends DO justify the means in such instances as the Dominion War. If you're not alive, then nothing else matters. Bashir and the others who stopped the absolutely necessary and justified annihilation (by whatever means) of the Founders by Section 31 were traitors by my lights. I fail to see how causing the collapse of the Dominion would have led to billions of more casualties (that matter--ie, casualties to the Federation).

 

[T'Girl]

... their attempted genocide would have resulted in billions more casualties.

Their "attempted genocide" is one of the prime reasons the war ended when it did.

Would the Federation and their allies eventually have defeated the Dominion?

Maybe.

But only after vastly more death and suffering. Death and suffering that S31 prevented through their actions and deeds. And also though the Federation council's decision to withhold the cure from the Founders.

 

[anh165]

General order 24 seemed like a deus ex machina in story telling if used too often, especially when in the 24th century, Picard and the crew routinely resolved conflicts through reasoning or technobabble.

 

[Hober Mallow]

No way to ever know. The 24th century is gone...

I don't know what this means.

I'm pretty sure it's a dig at JJ-Trek.

Except that BillJ is a huge fan of JJ-Trek. One should simply assume things.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

... their attempted genocide would have resulted in billions more casualties.

Their "attempted genocide" is one of the prime reasons the war ended when it did.

Yeah, the virus used on the noncombatant Founders was the primary reason not the armada of Federation allied ships over Cardassia that blew through the Dominion armada between Cardassia and DS9.

Would the Federation and their allies eventually have defeated the Dominion?

Maybe.

There is no maybe the war was pretty much over at that point all the Dominion was going to do was go out in the blaze of glory which was likely motivated by the Founders dying, so Section 31 could have caused the war to almost end in a blood bath.