Does Enterpise-A's short tenure make sense?

[BillJ]

I don’t remember that ever being stated. I could be wrong, though. It has been over 30 years since DS9.

I'm pretty sure I remember it. Why they desperately needed Romulus in the war, on their side.

 

[Imaus]

I'm pretty sure I remember it. Why they desperately needed Romulus in the war, on their side.

Only because the Dominion had just hit the shipyards along with a personnel issue, which is a limiter on the amount of ships one would build. While I don't know which ones were in need to be rebuilt - Utopia and San Fran were still around at this time - Vreenak could be talking about something akin to the dominion destroying the shipyards they had taken before they withdrew back to Cardassian space in a sort of scorched earth policy, the ones nearer to the frontier which would be vital to help repair and refit ships closer to the front:

VREENAK: You are persistent, Captain, I'll grant you that, but dogged determination isn't enough to change the reality of your situation. Time is definitely not on your side. The Dominion shipyards are working at one hundred percent capacity. Yours are still being rebuilt. The Dominion is breeding legions of Jem'Hadar soldiers every day. You're experiencing a manpower shortage. But most important, the Dominion is resolved to win the war at any cost. You and I both know the Federation has already put out peace feelers. Now, in all candor, if you were in my position, which side would you choose?

 

[BillJ]

Only because the Dominion had just hit the shipyards along with a personnel issue, which is a limiter on the amount of ships one would build.

That the Dominion were able to hit multiple shipyards, shows just how much out of their depth Starfleet was in this war. But, that's not the line I'm referring to (and I already scanned the transcript for "In the Pale Moonlight", thanks @Chakoteya!). What I'm remembering clearly had Dax's voice behind it. Though I'm old and memory is a funny thing.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

I just looked at Chrissie's Transcripts website at the sixth season DS9 episode 'Satistical Probabilities' and it is first mentioned there that the Federation needs the Romulans on their side.

(The PADD, analysis mode 47, shows a chemical structure.)
SISKO: Chemistry was never my strong suit. What is it?
BASHIR: It shows how you can break down tri-nucleic fungus to make yridium bicantizine, one of the active ingredients in Ketracel White. That's why the Dominion wants the Kabrel system, so that they can manufacture the drug right here in the Alpha Quadrant. According to our calculations, they'll be able to make enough White to supply the Jem'Hadar indefinitely.
SISKO: I was going to recommend that the Federation accept the proposed border. It could have cost us the Alpha Quadrant.
BASHIR: Actually, sir, we should give them Kabrel.
SISKO: Why is that?
BASHIR: If we don't, the Dominion will be forced to attack before their stockpile of White runs out. Here are the casualty projections. As you can see, an attack would result in devastating casualties for both sides.
SISKO: You're suggesting we stall?
BASHIR: It'll buy us time to rebuild our defences and bring the Romulans into the alliance.
SISKO: The Romulans?
BASHIR: According to our analyses, there it is, they'll vote to abandon their non-aggression pact with the Dominion at next year's plenary session. By which time, internal pressures between the Cardassians and the Dominion will have erupted, and after three years six months and twenty seven days, we predict that

 

[Shawnster]

The fact that the Miranda class is about the same age and continued to see service to at least the mid 2370s shoots that argument down.

1. How do we know the age of the Miranda class? How is this a fact? (wait,, we do see the Reliant's registry number in TOS "Court Martial")

2. It is clear there is a different engineering structure between the Constitution and Miranda classes. The Connies have an engineering hull with a warp core that is horizontal as well as having some sort of vertical component. Mirandas lack this structure and their warp core is obviously a different configuration. What else is different between the two classes? Perhaps enough to either give the Mirandas a longer natural lifespan or allowed them to be easier/more economical to upgrade.

 

[PoorSailorsAirline]

They are very complex machines, I doubt they can just punch them out, on demand.

With two centuries of shipbuilding by the time of the movies, the resources of numerous asteroid belts, a huge population across a dozen stars, and then we have the buildup nearly a century later of the Feds just pumping out hundred ship fleets for the dominion war, why the doubt.

You're only putting several hundred people at a time on these things. Guess they'll find out whether or not they work, on the way to Whothehellcares IX. And, if it blows up, they can just punch out another one...

Not all that long ago, Boeing was quite proud of their very efficient improved airplane manufacturing process. They could move a brand new B737 MAX through their final assembly line in only 10 days. Wow! Well, now we all know why Boeing is constantly in the news and people are making jokes that flight attendants should hand out screws and bolts instead of snack mix.

I'd like to think Starfleet read that chapter in Engineering History and doesn't rush these things out.

[...] or if they all died and the ship was a macabre bit of recycling.

That's what happens when you make a Vulcan the head of fleet logistics. "Captain, there is no logic in ghosts. Proceed with painting the new name on the hull."


Regarding the fate of the Enterprise-A, I always took "to be decommissioned" to mean that combo of spacecraft/ship name/crew/mission was being unwound once and for all. Slap a new name on the ship for the trainees, hand the Enterprise plaque to the E-B, and the crew merrily goes off to retirement.

As for Federation shipyards vis-a-vis the Dominion, it seems obvious to me that Starfleet couldn't build ships as fast. Even if they stopped adding any 'frills' in construction, those yards are still going to be set up for building Oberths on one drydock and Sovereigns on another. Turning a Galaxy-class drydock into one that pumps out ten times the Miranda-classes will take time before the first ship leaves the line. Meanwhile, the Dominion isn't building new Galor-class ships for Cardassia--they're just cranking out Jem'Hadar Attack Ships as fast as the Vorta can keep cranking out Jem'Hadar to fly them. (No pesky escape pods to install!) I figured that was the main reason why the Dominion was outbuilding the Alpha Quadrant powers so handily.

 

[Macintosh]

The fact that the Miranda class is about the same age and continued to see service to at least the mid 2370s shoots that argument down.

Not at all. The Miranda and the Constitution have different roles. I liken them to a draft horse and a thoroughbred racehorse, respectively. Constitutions are faster and more powerful in absolute terms, but have lower carrying capacity and need constant maintenance and optimisation to get the best out of them. Mirandas are slower and less powerful overall*, but have greater carrying capacity and are much more reliable, as well as being more flexible – they can be modified with optional modules for different mission roles.

The fact is that with the launch of the Excelsior, the ageing Constitution really lost its place as the "high-speed high-power high-profile cruiser" of Starfleet. There's no point keeping them around just for sentimentality's sake. They carry less than a Miranda, they're slower and weaker than an Excelsior, they are expensive and difficult to maintain. Whereas the Miranda still had a role as a second-tier courier and cargo ship, and a combination of being very reliable and having a lot of spare parts left over from the Constitution era meant they could keep working for decades with minimal cost.

Again, we have a real-world precedent for this. Enterprise CV-6 was the onlyYorktown-class aircraft carrier to survive WWII and was retired soon after, despite being in service for less than a decade and in full operational order; the Iowa-class battleships were contemporaries of the Yorktown-class and also served in WWII, but some of them remained in service until the 1990s. More reliable, easier/cheaper to maintain, different roles.

*Less powerful in terms of energy generation. The Reliant outguns the Enterprise and it seems from other Miranda variants that they could be kitted out with plenty of extra weaponry if necessary that the Constitution couldn't. Again, more flexibility, different roles.

 

[Macintosh]

Wasn't the implied threat during the Dominion War that the Federation would eventually lose because they couldn't build ships as fast as the Dominion could? (And not replace their personnel as quickly, too.)

Correct, it's one of the things Vreenak taunts Sisko with when he tries to get the Romulans to join the war on the Federation's side in "In the Pale Moonlight":

"Time is definitely not on your side. The Dominion shipyards are working at one hundred percent capacity – yours are still being rebuilt. The Dominion is breeding legions of Jem'Hadar soldiers every day – you're experiencing a manpower shortage."

 

[at Quark's]

Well, it's certainly true as far as replacing fighting personnel goes. As long as the Dominion has Ketracel White, they can replace any lost fighters in 3 days. (OK, perhaps slightly longer when you include the pre-emergence phase). Fighters, moreover, that don't need food, drink, or sleep, or any other amenities, only the White, so their ships can more optimized for combat than even the Defiant is. Replacing Starfleet personnel takes several years (about 25 years if we take the full life cycle). Slight Dominion advantage there. Of course, this advantage could be somewhat nullified if Starfleet were willing to consider employing AI on their ships.

As for the ships, I thought there were direct and explicit quotes but I haven't found any yet. However, there are important indications, some of which already have been mentioned above. For another example in What You Leave Behind, after having won the battle also thanks to the Cardassians switching sides, they have this discussion about whether to push on or not:

MARTOK As I predicted -- the day is ours.
SISKO Not yet it isn't.
ROSS Ben, we've driven the Dominion back to Cardassia Prime. We can keep them bottled-up there indefinitely.
SISKO But what if they use that time to rebuild their fleet?
MARTOK The Dominion has displayed an ability to build ships at an impressive rate. We must continue our attack.
ROSS At what cost? We've already lost a third of our fleet.
MARTOK And we must see to it that those soldiers did not die in vain.
SISKO Admiral -- with the Cardassians joining us, we have an opportunity to put an end to this war, once and for all.
[The Admiral takes a moment to weigh his decision.]
ROSS All right, gentlemen... we press on.

So, the Klingons, Romulans, and Federation combined have confined a Dominion outpost (and the resources they can command) to a single system ... and they still take their rebuilding capabilities as a serious threat. I'd say that's an important indication.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What is your personal head canon?

Or Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean who somehow becomes a hero. Yeah, that’s the movie/TV/fiction thing where if you haven’t murdered any innocents lately, you’re redeemable. (See for ex. Fennic Shand over on The Mandalorian & The Book of Boba Fett, who had randomly murdered some passerby...

www.trekbbs.com

Just when you think you've heard everything.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I always thought (and still do) that the reason the Enterprise-A was retired is that it was too heavily damaged in battle during the events of ST VI.

And while there is precisely zero evidence that the A is another ship renamed - that's just fan speculation - there IS evidence that it's brand new: Scotty's reaction ("I think this new ship was put together by monkeys!").

That said, I do think Starfleet has gotten quite lax in retiring ships before the end of their useful lives. Just look at the Enterprise-F from PIC. That ship didn't look anywhere near like it deserved to be retired. Hell, it looked brand new!

Oh, and while technically we did indeed never see a Constitution-class ship after ST VI, we did see at least one ship kitbashed from it (at least one of the destroyed wrecks at Wolf 359 used a Connie secondary hull). So the parts aren't totally obsolete.

 

[BillJ]

That said, I do think Starfleet has gotten quite lax in retiring ships before the end of their useful lives. Just look at the Enterprise-F from PIC. That ship didn't look anywhere near like it deserved to be retired. Hell, it looked brand new!

The more people and material items that there are, the less special they become. To the point of being casually discarded.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think "so Generations could happen" is an answer

 

[Dukhat]

Although we don't know the fate of the Enterprise-B (although I think that if it had survived, that it would have been in the Starfleet Museum as well), the Ent-E (because Terry thought some stupid vague one-off joke was the right way to let fans know of its fate), or the Ent-F, I think the implication is that all the Enterprises up to the G have been lost or destroyed. That would make the Enterprise-A the only Enterprise that still exists in its original complete form.

 

[evilchumlee]

I was always in the camp that Ent-A wasn't a new construction. They just renamed another ship. It may have been one that came in for repairs, or potentially once that undergone a late refit (there were still TOS configuration Constitution's that never got the refit, as evidenced by USS New Jersey).

I've always kind of thought that the Refit Constitutions (perhaps Constitutions in general) were... not actually great ships? At least in so far as their longevity.

 

[BillJ]

I've always kind of thought that the Refit Constitutions (perhaps Constitutions in general) were... not actually great ships? At least in so far as their longevity.

Class was launched in 2245, and we're only aware of the Enterprise being retired.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

From STV [link]:

SCOTT: [...] I think this new ship was put together by monkeys.​

It's canonical. The Enterprise-A is a new ship, not a rechristened ship.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Should have gone like this

NCC-1701: 2245-2245 (April/Pike/Kirk) Constitution
NCC-1701-A: 2285-2332 (Kirk/Harriman/?) Constitution II
NCC-1701-B: 2332-2344 (?/Garrett) Ambassador
NCC-1701-C: 2344-2363 (/?/?/?) ?
NCC-1701-D: 2263-2403 (Picard/?/?) Galaxy

Not a fan of the Excelsior design

 

[fireproof78]

Should have gone like this

NCC-1701: 2245-2245 (April/Pike/Kirk) Constitution
NCC-1701-A: 2285-2332 (Kirk/Harriman/?) Constitution II
NCC-1701-B: 2332-2344 (?/Garrett) Ambassador
NCC-1701-C: 2344-2363 (/?/?/?) ?
NCC-1701-D: 2263-2403 (Picard/?/?) Galaxy

Not a fan of the Excelsior design

Get rid of the Ambassador too. Something a little different than the Constitution but not as awkward as the Galaxy.

 

[Dukhat]

The Enterprise-A is either:

1. A TOS Connie that was refit into a TMP Connie,

2. A newbuild TMP Connie but an older ship that was renamed the Enterprise-A,

3. A newbuild TMP Connie that was brand-new as of TVH.


I personally have never believed it was option 1, although I can't totally discount it for lack of any other information. And I have flip-flopped for years about the other two options. It would totally make more sense for the ship to be older so that its decommissioning would make more sense from a practical standpoint, but it also makes sense for a brand-new ship to have the kinks it had in TFF (although why one would send a malfunctioning ship on a rescue mission is lost on me, especially since the Excelsior was right next to it.)

From STV [link]:

SCOTT: [...] I think this new ship was put together by monkeys.​

It's canonical. The Enterprise-A is a new ship, not a rechristened ship.

Not necessarily. I can buy a used car and to me, it's new.