does china still ban religion?
- Thread starter drychlick
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From wiki and wiki:
So, to answer your question, if you are Christian you can celebrate Christmas in China. Obviously, if you are irreligious or if you adhere to another religion, you will have no interest in doing so, since Christmas is not also a traditional holiday like in Europe or in the US (where people usually celebrate it in one form or the other).
As far as I know, that's not entirely true.
The chinese government doesn't like Catholicism at all, because of its ties to the Vatican. They don't mind people believing in the Christian god, but they want to have control over the religious organisation, so they more or less created their own brand of Catholicism that's independent of the Vatican.
And for pretty much the same reasons they also dislike evangelical Christianity.
^ Yeah, that's true. China's government doesn't take lightly the fact that people technically (if ineffectively) swore allegiance to a foreign power (the Vatican), especially one that is so deeply intertwined with the West. But I guess it's more about international politics than religion, so I thought about leaving it out since it didn't have bearing upon question asked. But you are still right. 
And they want control over everything else.
No they don't - They're Maoists!
Well, truth to be told, there is actually very little Maoism in today's China. Not that this is a bad thing.
There is also a degree of persecution for new religious groups like the Falun Gong. The long and the short of it is China is mostly fine with any religions it can moderate and control.
So you can celebrate Christmas, if you want to.
So you can celebrate Christmas, if you want to.
Post-Cultural Revolution, I can't see an absence of Maoism as a bad thing at all.
^ Wholeheartedly agreed.
Well after six years in commercial Shanghai I can say the following about it:
And as a former teacher I can tell you with many, many occasions of experience:
by and large Chinese society is materialistic; and while some are Christian (I've met one or two in my time here - literally), most are atheistic (except when praying to the big lumberjack statues of the gods of money during spring festival), and finally,
even MENTIONING religion, spirituality, Christianity, other cultural beliefs - will almost certainly elicit the eye roll
followed by an invisible brick wall of totally dismissing you.
Mind you, I don't preach. This is just the mere mention of any word with a religious context. You can literally see the eyes glaze over, and quite often, open mockery and laughter at any "idiot" who does not have money at the top of the pyramid. You say any word with a religious context, and you are now "an idiot to be utterly ignored and laughed at surreptitiously". For example: "The tallest building in the town was a church." 4 people roll their eyes, two couples whisper something, 5 now look at you about to burst out laughing, not at what you said, but at YOU - you are different. That is the crime.
The most educated and diplomatic merely say nothing at all. As in, for the rest of the night.
In other words, there is apparent freedom, but the filters in the mind are as rigid as ever.
But then, this is not about religion. This speaks to an even more prevailing mindset which validates only Chinese culture, business culture and custom, filtering the entire world through the Chinese definition and context. For example, I can't teach western business culture. It won't take. It will not take. That's why there are so many books on how to do business in China. The most you'll actually get is lip service. Western business is meritocratic, Chinese more like cronyistic exploitation. They learn and speak English because they want "a higher paying job" - whatever it is. Most actually do not want to. Most will tell you they want Chinese to be the lingua franca of the world. Most believe the hype of the Olympics.
They are not interested in international business practices. They are interested in that money, but insist on doing things the Chinese way, period. And you know why? I'm sure I won't win any friends for saying so, but it's the rote/exam-based education system. The thing no one is saying: they are left without the skills for functioning in meritocracies. Hence the knockoff industries. I've actually had whole classes argue with me that western media is all propaganda but China's media is free. That lead paint in toys is no problem because the government said so. Ostrich syndrome!
I would have loved to spend six years teaching modern management methods and innovative business concepts. Didn't happen. In the absence of merit, is conceit. I would have loved to talk about entrepreneurship, and how to create wealth. The prevailing interest? How to siphon wealth. It is very sad. Many relish the US's economic troubles. Never mind the local costs.
RE Mao: Most say, 70% good, 30% bad. WTF does that mean, I have no idea. But most still hold Marxism to be the ideal, communism to be the highest achievable human state. They've just gotten less naive about it.
But do keep an open mind for that .005 % of truly open minded and adaptive person. They do exist. I met one, or two. Maybe three.
But on a final note, by far the prevailing attitude is one of love of money and unmitigated misery which no amount of money will ever, ever satisfy. "How much money is enough?" I ask. In six years I have never gotten an answer.
I apologize for the rant. My attitude is truly not one-sided, I'm just ranting. But before anyone accuses me of bias, I'm not speaking out of disrespect but respect for individuality and its rights. Also I am speaking about cultural generalities. It is the Chinese who have created a society based around race, so leave that argument in the box, please.
- The churches have two services - one for "foreigners", one for locals.
- The government appoints its own bishops, to the Vatican's chagrin
- There are as many as 15 major churches in and around Shanghai, and some lesser ones.
- Christmas is utterly about shopping and santa. There is no mention of Jesus AT ALL.
- Christians and Christianity, indeed most religious and spiritual beliefs, are actively and openly mocked. The "goody two shoes girls", you know, the prim princesses who fart sunshine and study 25 hours a day, are usually atheists.
And as a former teacher I can tell you with many, many occasions of experience:
by and large Chinese society is materialistic; and while some are Christian (I've met one or two in my time here - literally), most are atheistic (except when praying to the big lumberjack statues of the gods of money during spring festival), and finally,
even MENTIONING religion, spirituality, Christianity, other cultural beliefs - will almost certainly elicit the eye roll
followed by an invisible brick wall of totally dismissing you. Mind you, I don't preach. This is just the mere mention of any word with a religious context. You can literally see the eyes glaze over, and quite often, open mockery and laughter at any "idiot" who does not have money at the top of the pyramid. You say any word with a religious context, and you are now "an idiot to be utterly ignored and laughed at surreptitiously". For example: "The tallest building in the town was a church." 4 people roll their eyes, two couples whisper something, 5 now look at you about to burst out laughing, not at what you said, but at YOU - you are different. That is the crime.
The most educated and diplomatic merely say nothing at all. As in, for the rest of the night.
In other words, there is apparent freedom, but the filters in the mind are as rigid as ever.
But then, this is not about religion. This speaks to an even more prevailing mindset which validates only Chinese culture, business culture and custom, filtering the entire world through the Chinese definition and context. For example, I can't teach western business culture. It won't take. It will not take. That's why there are so many books on how to do business in China. The most you'll actually get is lip service. Western business is meritocratic, Chinese more like cronyistic exploitation. They learn and speak English because they want "a higher paying job" - whatever it is. Most actually do not want to. Most will tell you they want Chinese to be the lingua franca of the world. Most believe the hype of the Olympics.
They are not interested in international business practices. They are interested in that money, but insist on doing things the Chinese way, period. And you know why? I'm sure I won't win any friends for saying so, but it's the rote/exam-based education system. The thing no one is saying: they are left without the skills for functioning in meritocracies. Hence the knockoff industries. I've actually had whole classes argue with me that western media is all propaganda but China's media is free. That lead paint in toys is no problem because the government said so. Ostrich syndrome!
I would have loved to spend six years teaching modern management methods and innovative business concepts. Didn't happen. In the absence of merit, is conceit. I would have loved to talk about entrepreneurship, and how to create wealth. The prevailing interest? How to siphon wealth. It is very sad. Many relish the US's economic troubles. Never mind the local costs.
RE Mao: Most say, 70% good, 30% bad. WTF does that mean, I have no idea. But most still hold Marxism to be the ideal, communism to be the highest achievable human state. They've just gotten less naive about it.
But do keep an open mind for that .005 % of truly open minded and adaptive person. They do exist. I met one, or two. Maybe three.
But on a final note, by far the prevailing attitude is one of love of money and unmitigated misery which no amount of money will ever, ever satisfy. "How much money is enough?" I ask. In six years I have never gotten an answer.
I apologize for the rant. My attitude is truly not one-sided, I'm just ranting. But before anyone accuses me of bias, I'm not speaking out of disrespect but respect for individuality and its rights. Also I am speaking about cultural generalities. It is the Chinese who have created a society based around race, so leave that argument in the box, please.
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Thank you for your informative post, Triskelion. I appreciate your first-hand recount, and I must say I've heard similar things more often than not. Personally, I don't care much for religions, but the unwavering focus on material acquisition is surely unhealthy. I suppose the root of the problem must be the Cultural Revolution, that deprived the country of centuries of culture and history, and substituted them with, well, nothing. That's the real tragedy to me, not the scorn and mocking at Christianity or Christmas (your mileage may vary, obviously). Without an underlying culture, money was the only thing they can focus upon.
As for teaching "modern management methods and innovative business concepts", I must confess I'm really ignorant about that. But my feeling is that they are so removed from Chinese culture that trying to apply them there is an exercise in futility. Western business practices have their dark side, for sure, and one of this is unending competition. I understand that many will not consider it a drawback at all, because competition fosters excellence. Absolutely true. But it also fosters a competitive mindset that often overflows to other aspect of life: home, family, friends, neighborhood. I belong to a slightly different culture (I'm from Italy), and the way I see it, sometimes living peacefully is a price too hight to pay for increasing productivity. That said, I agree with most that you said, I just wanted to point out that every cultural point of view, by definition, is biased and colored but the culture of the observer. I'm sure that, if I had the same experience that you had, I would had reached very similar, but not identical conclusions. I hope what I said makes sense since I'm not going to re-read all of that...
As for teaching "modern management methods and innovative business concepts", I must confess I'm really ignorant about that. But my feeling is that they are so removed from Chinese culture that trying to apply them there is an exercise in futility. Western business practices have their dark side, for sure, and one of this is unending competition. I understand that many will not consider it a drawback at all, because competition fosters excellence. Absolutely true. But it also fosters a competitive mindset that often overflows to other aspect of life: home, family, friends, neighborhood. I belong to a slightly different culture (I'm from Italy), and the way I see it, sometimes living peacefully is a price too hight to pay for increasing productivity. That said, I agree with most that you said, I just wanted to point out that every cultural point of view, by definition, is biased and colored but the culture of the observer. I'm sure that, if I had the same experience that you had, I would had reached very similar, but not identical conclusions. I hope what I said makes sense since I'm not going to re-read all of that...
^ agreed
Notte silente, you're spot on about the CR's effect of creating a vacuum culture. This is not my opinion but confirmed by some of my more contemporary-minded Chinese students as well. I should mention that my students have been working adults, who, after 10-15 years of English "study", now face their actual deficiencies in the workplace, and so come back to try and fix the situation - and sadly, usually apply the same techniques that got them there in the first place, expecting a different result.
Much agreed also your point about the west's business model of "predatory barbarism" being good for competition but taking a toll on what you call peace. A more laid-back lifestyle, as well as family relationships. Competition in the Western family is a sad price to pay; it creates all manner of dysfunctions.
But in business, Chinese business practices can be quite ruthless and hypocritical. And rely heavily on exploitation and rigid hierarchization of status.
By and large, most people in China want the international community to kowtow to the "superior culture", and have little interest in adapting to a global community in spirit.
I attribute it to the fundamental insecurity of the problem as you described it, coupled with collectivism's invalidation of the individual. In the absence of security, conceit.
One more point: as in Jesus' time, the real crime of religion, in China, is when the one preaching about the higher power than the state actually gets a following that could lead to a social movement. You're free as long as you're powerless.
Oh, and you're absolutely right about people viewing things through their own cultural lenses. I wish I met more people in this world who would take the time to examine other points of view, and validate those differences. But for some, there is little validation of those differences, and more stereotypical thinking that is the refuge of the indiscriminate. (Contemporary management styles can be highly sensitive to those differences, and validate them individually and culturally). Really I find that there is a difference between discussing cultural differences and espousing a mindset of cultural superiority that cannot tolerate its own scrutiny.
Notte silente, you're spot on about the CR's effect of creating a vacuum culture. This is not my opinion but confirmed by some of my more contemporary-minded Chinese students as well. I should mention that my students have been working adults, who, after 10-15 years of English "study", now face their actual deficiencies in the workplace, and so come back to try and fix the situation - and sadly, usually apply the same techniques that got them there in the first place, expecting a different result.
Much agreed also your point about the west's business model of "predatory barbarism" being good for competition but taking a toll on what you call peace. A more laid-back lifestyle, as well as family relationships. Competition in the Western family is a sad price to pay; it creates all manner of dysfunctions.
But in business, Chinese business practices can be quite ruthless and hypocritical. And rely heavily on exploitation and rigid hierarchization of status.
By and large, most people in China want the international community to kowtow to the "superior culture", and have little interest in adapting to a global community in spirit.
I attribute it to the fundamental insecurity of the problem as you described it, coupled with collectivism's invalidation of the individual. In the absence of security, conceit.
One more point: as in Jesus' time, the real crime of religion, in China, is when the one preaching about the higher power than the state actually gets a following that could lead to a social movement. You're free as long as you're powerless.
Oh, and you're absolutely right about people viewing things through their own cultural lenses. I wish I met more people in this world who would take the time to examine other points of view, and validate those differences. But for some, there is little validation of those differences, and more stereotypical thinking that is the refuge of the indiscriminate. (Contemporary management styles can be highly sensitive to those differences, and validate them individually and culturally). Really I find that there is a difference between discussing cultural differences and espousing a mindset of cultural superiority that cannot tolerate its own scrutiny.
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