Does canon really matter?
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They obviously stole the idea from me.
But seriously, I've always thought about picking up those Enterprise-era Romulan War novels. Maybe I should finally do it...
I simply think the Kurtzman-Orci films -- mostly due to the way-too-fast pacing of the films -- did not feel as much like taking place in the Star Trek universe as I think they could have.
Granted, they did in fact take place upon a stage that looks like Star Trek, but the film did not use that stage in the same way that TOS and TNG did. It's like they made a story that only reluctantly used the Trekverse as it's setting. Those two Kurtzman-Orci films were enjoyable movies, but I think they could have made them in such a way that was just as enjoyable while still more closely matching the more thoughtful tone of other Star Trek films.
I understand the need to modernize a film tone for the 21st century, but Kurtzman and Orci's films suffered from a breakneck pacing in which everything happens much too quickly. I also understand the need for "action" in a film, but that does not necessarily mean that if people aren't running and/or flying around and /or shooting and or getting shot after 10 minutes of film time, that the film is lacking action for those 10 minutes..
Action can happen when two characters are having a conversation in the briefing room. In fact, a better screenwriter can MAKE a conversation in a briefing room part of the action.
Look at the conversation in the Genesis cave in TWoK after Khan "stranded" then there. It was simply a group of people in a cave talking, but the huge payoff at the end of that scene was set up by that talking -- talking which effectively used the character's established traits (i.e., using the Trekverse setting properly) in order to give us that great payoff at the end of that scene. Likewise with the scene near the beginning of that film when McCoy gave Kirk the birthday present glasses. Just two old farts talking about age in what seems to be a younger person's world...but it was and extremely meaningful scene and set up the theme of much the action for the rest of them film.
The bottom line is that better (non-breakneck) pacing allows time for the established Star Trek characters to explore established Star Trek themes. That's hard for a screenwriter to have the characters to do when those characters are spending a lot of time running/flying/jumping/riding to and fro.
Kurtzman and Orci somewhat effectively did use the established themes and characters that comprise that Star Trek setting, but I think they mainly used those themes and characters as a prop more than a setting. And being used mainly as a prop, they did not use them as thoughtfully as they could have.
I think THAT'S what a film in the Trekverse needs to do, it needs to use established Star Trek themes and characters in thoughtful situations. It's not enough to simply act upon the Trekverse stage and use Trekverse characters -- even if the film is "fun" overall. I like fun, but I also like memorable. Star Trek (2009) and ST Into Darkness were fun, but not very memorable. TWoK, TUC, First Contact -- and even some of Final Frontier (really) were memorable -- maybe that's because they were thoughtful.
I think ST Beyond was even more thoughtful -- and maybe even more memorable -- than the two previous films, maybe because the pacing was slowed down enough (just a bit slower) in order to allow for some subtle exposition (read: well-crafted exposition that isn't obvious). That slower pace, which was mainly while they were on the planet, allowed the writers more time to have the character explore established Star Trek themes, which (IMHO) made for a more thoughtful film.
And for me at least, a thoughtful film is a more memorable film. And could still be fun.
I thought they did fine. I rank TMP as my favorite Trek film. Right behind it? Star Trek Into Darkness.
TO me, while ALL of Trek fits into one loose canon of adventures, IMO as long as a Trek show stays consistent within the bounds of its OWN SERIES, it should be good enough.
Klingons look weird and not what they "should" look like? Whatever. As long as they don't suddenly change a few episodes later with no explanation, we should be okay. Starfleet uniforms? They look great, but if they change them between seasons 2 and 3 I'm hoping someone will at least notice how much "brighter" they look as an inside joke, as on DS9.
Meanwhile, I *was* bugged when Voyager changed their phasers and communicators to the same that DS9 had changed to, AFTER they got stuck in the Delta Quadrant, and in fact people are STILL wondering about it. And yet, the Borg changed significantly every time they showed up in TNG and then even more when they swapped to the First Contact / Voyager look, and rarely do people bring that up - and IMO it's because the looks were relatively confined to their particular show, allowing them to stay mentally isolated (for lack of a better term) to a corner of the franchise. YMMV of course.
Mark
Klingons look weird and not what they "should" look like? Whatever. As long as they don't suddenly change a few episodes later with no explanation, we should be okay. Starfleet uniforms? They look great, but if they change them between seasons 2 and 3 I'm hoping someone will at least notice how much "brighter" they look as an inside joke, as on DS9.
Meanwhile, I *was* bugged when Voyager changed their phasers and communicators to the same that DS9 had changed to, AFTER they got stuck in the Delta Quadrant, and in fact people are STILL wondering about it. And yet, the Borg changed significantly every time they showed up in TNG and then even more when they swapped to the First Contact / Voyager look, and rarely do people bring that up - and IMO it's because the looks were relatively confined to their particular show, allowing them to stay mentally isolated (for lack of a better term) to a corner of the franchise. YMMV of course.
Mark
Let's say that the Andorians appear in DSC, but this time they're fat bouncing red balls with black spiky hair and tails. Or Jim Kirk appears and is immediately killed off. Or the Constitution class shows up as a dreadnought with five nacelles and two engineering hulls. Everyone gonna be okay with that?
Canon isn't a thing, really. But continuity and consistency, that matters. Otherwise, what's the point in calling it trek?
Klingons look a certain way, were used to it. Why change it, we like the familiar close by when we're exploring the unknown. I like attention to detail. I want the right number of pips on the collar, I like phasers firing from the proper hole in the ship. Anything else is half arsed sloppy production.
Yes, something's need retconning, some facts need brushing aside, like the colour of Klingon blood, or sub light Romulans, or how kirk can visit the energy barriers at the centre of the galaxy and the edge but Picard needs a space warping alien probe possessing his crew and Janeway pisses about for 70 years to cross the galaxy. I'd like to see less of these contradictions and see the show stick to its own rules.
I don't care what value is assigned to warp 5, so long as warp 5 is the same next episode. I don't care if the bridge is deck 1 or deck 79, so long as they pick one and stick to it, and if it is 79, have the gumption to check on the other 78 decks below, just in case there's actually only a third of that.
Its not even about being obsessive about trivia. The detail is what enriches it, gives makes the made up stuff mass in the real world. Contradictions spoil that. Its a big universe, with a lot of scope for a lot of stories, but they must be bound by the rules of that world we've come to immerse ourselves in for an hour or so.
My gosh. I'm ranting about canon. I'll stop now.
Klingons look a certain way, were used to it. Why change it, we like the familiar close by when we're exploring the unknown. I like attention to detail. I want the right number of pips on the collar, I like phasers firing from the proper hole in the ship. Anything else is half arsed sloppy production.
Yes, something's need retconning, some facts need brushing aside, like the colour of Klingon blood, or sub light Romulans, or how kirk can visit the energy barriers at the centre of the galaxy and the edge but Picard needs a space warping alien probe possessing his crew and Janeway pisses about for 70 years to cross the galaxy. I'd like to see less of these contradictions and see the show stick to its own rules.
I don't care what value is assigned to warp 5, so long as warp 5 is the same next episode. I don't care if the bridge is deck 1 or deck 79, so long as they pick one and stick to it, and if it is 79, have the gumption to check on the other 78 decks below, just in case there's actually only a third of that.
Its not even about being obsessive about trivia. The detail is what enriches it, gives makes the made up stuff mass in the real world. Contradictions spoil that. Its a big universe, with a lot of scope for a lot of stories, but they must be bound by the rules of that world we've come to immerse ourselves in for an hour or so.
My gosh. I'm ranting about canon. I'll stop now.
Warp five is never the same, which says about all anyone really needs to know.
As long as the fat-bouncing-red-ball-spikey-haired-and-tailed Andorians are part of a good story!Let's say that the Andorians appear in DSC, but this time they're fat bouncing red balls with black spiky hair and tails. Or Jim Kirk appears and is immediately killed off. Or the Constitution class shows up as a dreadnought with five nacelles and two engineering hulls. Everyone gonna be okay with that?
It's why the TOS Enterprise can cover 1100 lightyears in one episode without modifications, the Enterprise D can manage 10,000+ lightyears a year of speed in season 1, Voyager is substantially slower than both by being the fastest ship Starfleet ever made over a century later and the Kelvin ships move at about warp 14 while only doing warp 4.25 on the speedometer onscreen.
Warpdrive, how the fuck does that work.
This may be the single most consistently applied technological development in all of Star Trek.
Not sure but apparently warp 8 crosses Northern Ireland in 7 hours
Let's say that the Andorians appear in DSC, but this time they're fat bouncing red balls with black spiky hair and tails. Or Jim Kirk appears and is immediately killed off. Or the Constitution class shows up as a dreadnought with five nacelles and two engineering hulls. Everyone gonna be okay with that?
This is pretty typical of discussions in this forum.
Producers are all "canon is good and we like canon and we care about canon." And y'all are like 'BUT RED BLOBBY ANDORIANS MIGHT BE A THING!!!"
This is pretty typical of discussions in this forum.
Producers are all "canon is good and we like canon and we care about canon." And y'all are like 'BUT RED BLOBBY ANDORIANS MIGHT BE A THING!!!"
I think the question is, how much can change visually before pro-Prime folks consider it too far and no longer fits with what came before?
I already explained that
anyway it's more like 4 to go clear across it.Anyway also Warp 14 is possible for extra galactic travel without much effort so really, warp drive can be as fast or slow as they need, as long as they stick to the "no fights at warp" thing which most were consistant about.
It's interesting to watch TOS and then the rest of the different series when it comes to traveling the galaxy. In TOS they give you the impression that they are traveling unknown space and that they can go from one end of the Galaxy to the other as the story dictates. The Galaxy seems small. Then you get to TNG and Voyager and realize how huge the Galaxy is and our stalwart characters have really only explored a small portion of the Galaxy. In TOS you could be 70,000 light years from home and back by the end of the episode. Then they make Voyager who is 70,000 light years away from home and it takes years for them to get home.
Continuity is a bit of a mess in the franchise!
I already explained that
Anyway also Warp 14 is possible for extra galactic travel without much effort so really, warp drive can be as fast or slow as they need, as long as they stick to the "no fights at warp" thing which most were consistant about.
I know, I'm just teasing
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