Botany is interesting. Still, when someone starts up a Star Trek role play society. I never had anyone wanted or was asked to be in botany. Have seen people wanted to run the bar, but nothing to do with botany.
Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?
- Thread starter Gul Bones
- Start date
Botany is interesting. Still, when someone starts up a Star Trek role play society. I never had anyone wanted or was asked to be in botany. Have seen people wanted to run the bar, but nothing to do with botany.
It's interesting, but not in a way that's easy to portray on-screen. "Wife" and "mother" are much more easily conveyed in a way that (under normal circumstances) holds the viewer's attention, so it's no wonder Keiko is most often seen in those roles.
True, but she could have been in Starfleet. Her husband when he first started out was a Lieutenant and then ended up as a non-officer. To be fair, Star Trek is about the officers, not someone that is just the cook.
Your absolutely right; the real issue with Keiko O'Brien was that she was there to compliment O'Brien and her role was pretty fixed: mother, wife, botanist, Kai Winn basher...
Nothing wrong with that. I thought Keiko was rather independently minded; she had her own aspirations but she enjoyed being a mother and being married. Not everyone is overly ambitious or wants to be really famous, they're content with a normal life but one that satisfies them. I thought Keiko managed to achieve towards the end of DS9...
Too be fair, the cook, the bartenders, the tailor and the child prodigy had more interesting and colorful lives than the officers did.
She was better than either Dax.
Too be fair, the cook, the bartenders, the tailor and the child prodigy had more interesting and colorful lives than the officers did.
Interesting!
Colour me another one completely mystified by the Keiko-hate. Even more so when she's painted as worse than Kai-m-f-in' Winn (who ordered an assassination attempt against Bareil Antos). Yeah, Keiko was more than a trifle sanctimonious in 'ItHotP', but, to her credit, she never tried to put out a hit on anybody... And regarding mean commentary about cooking, are the Keiko-haters conveniently forgetting that 'I'm not a fish' O'Brien comment during 'The Wounded' for some reason?
Speaking of her relationship with the Chief, I get the feeling she was probably a tsundere, and that has a certain appeal to some men (including myself, in the interests of full disclosure). And yeah, it was clear she hated the Bajor posting. But when push really came to shove, she proved herself incredibly loyal and supportive to O'Brien: 'Armageddon Game', as mentioned before, but also 'Tribunal' and 'Time's Orphan'.
Neither of the characters is perfect. But that was the point of DS9, to a pretty significant extent.
EDIT: And no one - I repeat, no one - can possibly out-bitch Vice Admiral Nechaev (though, I admit, the Female Changeling and Kai Winn do give her a run for her money). The way she treats Picard and Sisko is borderline unprofessional, and her 'you will commit genocide on my order' attitude is just begging for a good fragging... for the greater good of the Federation, natch.
Speaking of her relationship with the Chief, I get the feeling she was probably a tsundere, and that has a certain appeal to some men (including myself, in the interests of full disclosure). And yeah, it was clear she hated the Bajor posting. But when push really came to shove, she proved herself incredibly loyal and supportive to O'Brien: 'Armageddon Game', as mentioned before, but also 'Tribunal' and 'Time's Orphan'.
Neither of the characters is perfect. But that was the point of DS9, to a pretty significant extent.
EDIT: And no one - I repeat, no one - can possibly out-bitch Vice Admiral Nechaev (though, I admit, the Female Changeling and Kai Winn do give her a run for her money). The way she treats Picard and Sisko is borderline unprofessional, and her 'you will commit genocide on my order' attitude is just begging for a good fragging... for the greater good of the Federation, natch.
Yeah O'Brien said some pretty ugly things as well, and could bitch about things just as much as Keiko.
I wouldn't say the Female Changeling is a real bitch because she was so cold and uncaring towards solids (she was more fricking brutal and ruthless when things didn't go her way). At least you knew her position and she made no attempt to hide it. She was probably at her most vindictive when casting judgement on Odo and saying those snide things after Odo had been transformed into a solid.
Nechaev is the second most bitchiest woman character on Star Trek. She has that annoying superior air about her and a nasty mean streak. But she wasn't exactly evil unlike the female changeling or Winn.
But Winn is the nastiest bitch of them all. She is constantly manipulative, lying, deceitful to others (and herself), delusional and plain wicked at times. Winn is the only character I know of where I few like strangling her in virtually every scene. I think Winn mellowed a bit in season 5 of DS9, but in other seasons she was all of those things above (though in varying quantities). Plus Winn is a religious nut so add some more points to her bitchiness.
Ln X said:
Point taken. She may have been more a statement on what Odo might have been without Kira's (and the other solids') influence on him.
Huh. What you're saying is true, but Winn strikes me as less holistically bitchy for some reason. Her bitchiness at least has a reason to it, namely pure self-interest and political advancement. And she did try to destroy the book of the Kosst Amojan at the end, so that would indicate that she wasn't entirely without a conscience...
On the other hand, it seems to me that Nechaev just seems to walk all over her subordinates and acts like a complete pain in the ass just because she can. It's not that much of a distinction, I know; maybe it's just my perception.
She was behind bombing the school and brainwashed the young Bajorian Engineer into accepting the death penalty as the will of their god(s). What conscience?
It's the military, she's an Admiral.
When does anyone in the military speak nicely to subordinates? People in the military are trained to be hard noses. When Sisko needed a job done from his subordinates, was he nice about it? No, he barked his orders and made his crew jump into action. There was a reason why the subordinates of the Enterprise were intimidated by Picard. Treks flaw at times is making the audience/fans forget that these people are soldiers and that orders and commands are rarely given nicely.
Being a hard ass is what earns you Admiral pips.
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exodus said:
The thing about DS9 is that there are very few black-and-white situations and even fewer black-and-white personalities, morally speaking. Gul Dukat was a brutal génocidaire, hubristic, power-hungry, a serial rapist and adulterer and - very nearly - a kinslayer, but - even as close as he came to being as pure evil as pure evil gets - he still could (at times) show genuine care for his family and his people.
Likewise, Winn Adami was a manipulative, cruel, remorseless seeker of power to the point of being (for all intents and purposes) a devil-worshipper... but Sisko could not have defeated Dukat without her help, however late the hour in which it was given. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying she's morally better than Nechaev or Dukat - indeed, in many ways, she is morally much worse. But her 'bitchiness' strikes me as being at a much less personal level; it's subsumed in her need to get ahead.
exodus said:
Or being a suck-up. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.
And there is a distinct difference between being a hard-nose (or -arse) and being a bitch. There's a reason I have respect for Sisko and not for Nechaev, and it is not (despite what you may believe) because of the show's perspective. I have no fault with Nechaev giving hard orders or giving them in a way which is not 'nice'. I do fault Nechaev for second-guessing her field officers' judgement in implementing her orders at practically every conceivable step, particularly given her poor assessment of their characters and of the situation 'on the ground' at certain points, just to make it clear that she gets to do so.
Sisko knows his officers (or at least tries to) well enough to let them do what they need to do, even if his orders are hard and not 'nicely' given. He gives Chief O'Brien several very difficult assignments (and no, you don't get to hear any more about them than what I tell you, and you damn well better like it), but knows the Chief's competencies well enough to let him do his job.
Anyway, this discussion is getting off-track enough as it is.
Back to Keiko, anyone?
Even Nechayev had her moments. After Picard treated her to tea-time, and the admiral gets up to leave...she gives him a sad smile, and meakly says, "Thank you...for making me feel welcome."
It's a nice moment of vulnerability and humanity for an otherwise unlikable character.
It's a nice moment of vulnerability and humanity for an otherwise unlikable character.
I'd sure like to make Nechayev feel welcome... 
There are bitches and assholes in all walks of life, why should Trek be any different?
Out of all the characters in DS9,I couldn't stand Keiko .She wasn't believeable as being Obrein's wife and all she did complain ,complain.
I liked keiko on tng but not so much on ds9.
^Yeah, she had quite a few nice moments in TNG--my favorites being her "labor" sequences in "Disaster", where she is decidedly NOT amused by poor Worf's awkward handling of the situation....
