Don't forget that I'm anti Teen Trek. That's four strikes against me. It's not easy having high standards.
Huh. Pro-Three Stooges, anti-nuBSG and Star Wars. Man, that three strikes against you.
Does anybody here not like Star Wars?
- Thread starter Too Much Fun
- Start date
Don't forget that I'm anti Teen Trek. That's four strikes against me. It's not easy having high standards.
That would carry more weight as a complaint if the new Trek film--which I also think is schlock--actually featured teenagers instead of mid-20's and 30's actors playing their ages. Well, except for Chekov, who's being played by an actor even older than the character.
So I guess I'll put down a demerit for inability to tell how old people are.
(I'm also not convinced that liking the Three Stooges constitutes "having high standards!")
Star Wars, in my opinion, was a great concept that Lucas lost momentum on.
The first two films (i.e. A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back) are all-time classics. I've seen them dozens of times and I consider them two of the best films of all time.
Return of the Jedi lost me. I sort of felt about it the way some BSG fans felt about Daybreak. It landed with a dull thud, at least for me. It didn't ruin Star Wars for me or anything, but it was a disappointment.
I had high hopes for the prequel trilogy, but Lucas made so many missteps and outright bad decisions (the latter mostly with regards to casting a certain key role) that it lost me completely. Phantom Menace was a beautiful film, but boring (and seemed at several points to be trying to be West Wing in space). Attack of the Clones was the first Star Wars film I never even bothered going to see in the theatres. When I eventually rented it I thought it was alright, but that Anakin was criminally miscast. Revenge of the Sith lived up to it acronym, ROTS - a thoroughly unpleasant movie that I nearly walked out of. Not because I didn't want or expect SW to go dark. The fact Ep. III was going to be dark and violent was known years before. I just felt the film went too far, to the point where it was no longer a Star Wars film.
So while I cannot say I dislike Star Wars in terms of its concept -- or certainly in terms of its brilliant first two movies -- looking back on it I have to call it a disappointment, perhaps even a failure (at least from my perspective). I certainly have no interest in the Clone Wars animated shows. I'll give the live action show (if it ever gets made) a look, because at times it seems like SF TV is an endangered species, so we should support it when we can.
Cheers!
Alex
The first two films (i.e. A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back) are all-time classics. I've seen them dozens of times and I consider them two of the best films of all time.
Return of the Jedi lost me. I sort of felt about it the way some BSG fans felt about Daybreak. It landed with a dull thud, at least for me. It didn't ruin Star Wars for me or anything, but it was a disappointment.
I had high hopes for the prequel trilogy, but Lucas made so many missteps and outright bad decisions (the latter mostly with regards to casting a certain key role) that it lost me completely. Phantom Menace was a beautiful film, but boring (and seemed at several points to be trying to be West Wing in space). Attack of the Clones was the first Star Wars film I never even bothered going to see in the theatres. When I eventually rented it I thought it was alright, but that Anakin was criminally miscast. Revenge of the Sith lived up to it acronym, ROTS - a thoroughly unpleasant movie that I nearly walked out of. Not because I didn't want or expect SW to go dark. The fact Ep. III was going to be dark and violent was known years before. I just felt the film went too far, to the point where it was no longer a Star Wars film.
So while I cannot say I dislike Star Wars in terms of its concept -- or certainly in terms of its brilliant first two movies -- looking back on it I have to call it a disappointment, perhaps even a failure (at least from my perspective). I certainly have no interest in the Clone Wars animated shows. I'll give the live action show (if it ever gets made) a look, because at times it seems like SF TV is an endangered species, so we should support it when we can.
Cheers!
Alex
I was a teenager when the "A New Hope" was released, so I understood the vibe it gave off.. Hollywood was into it's gritty Anti-Hero phase, most films weren't made for teenagers and ,unless it was a Disney film, not for children either. Fox had no faith in it and opened it in a limited number of cinemas, and it exploded into the mainstream, it took over the culture and for years afterwards Science Fiction and Space Fantasy films became a staple of the movie going public..
Empire was about the most perfect of the OT, Return of the Jedi seemed to be more about the marketing than being a movie and was aimed at a younger audience..
It's success begat the original re-birth of Star Trek..I'm a Fan of the OT..not so much the flawed PT..but a Star Trek fan first and foremost.
Empire was about the most perfect of the OT, Return of the Jedi seemed to be more about the marketing than being a movie and was aimed at a younger audience..
It's success begat the original re-birth of Star Trek..I'm a Fan of the OT..not so much the flawed PT..but a Star Trek fan first and foremost.
I still love SW as an intellectual property but have to admit that the films are not holding up for me and continue to lose their magic. I enjoyed Fanboys more then any of the SW films, but i really like the Clone Wars cartoons.
Same here. I do have it on DVD, though; my wife the gamer is so hooked on Star Wars video games that she ended up buying all six movies on DVD (I only ever had the original Star Wars on VHS). In fact, we watched AOTC yesterday, because I figured some of the action sequences would look amazing on our big new HDTV. And they did look really nice, even though it's just DVD and not Blu-Ray. And then we'd get a scene with characters talking to each other, and holy crap, is the writing and acting awful in that movie. How do you make a movie with actors like Ewan McGregor and Samuel Jackson and make them boring? Lucas found a way. Not to mention that if I ever knew how Palpatine's plot was supposed to make sense, it faded from my memory long ago.
The OT is way over-hyped especially A New Hope, the story was way too simplistic. I enjoyed them, especially Empire. Return of the Jedi seemed liked a rehash of the first film. I enjoyed the PT more because of the more interesting story, the different worlds come to life much better, and the universe is a much more in depth place. Understandably, AOTC's acting is not that great, but somethings are best to be overlooked like the cut and paste characters of A New Hope. In Empire, they were people. In A New Hope, Lucas seemed to take his characters from Lord of the Rings, the Arthurian Legend, and others.
Happy 4-0, folks!
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I think one of the reasons I've actually liked the Clone Wars cartoon is that it's brought some of the simple fun back to Star Wars.
You can make many of the same criticisms of the OT as have been made of the PT (bad dialogue, unlikely situations, over-reliance on FX, dimestore philosophising) but man, the sense of fun is just gone from the prequels. One source of this that comes to mind is the loss of the straight-forward adventure plots that drove the OT. Overall, I actually liked the way Palpatine took over the Republic: create a "phantom menace" as an excuse to amass an army and suspend democratic government. Not terribly original, but still a solid story. However, Lucas spent way too much screen time on showing the details of the plan and on things like the machinations of the Senate. Further, when examined the details don't really make much sense anyway.
Another problem is the lack of an "everyman" character, a voice of wry reason that can help temper an overcooked story full of lofty pontificating about destiny and the Force. In this role, the OT had everyone's favorite scoundrel, Han Solo. But the PT really doesn't have this type of character. Aside from a few half-hearted attempts to make Obi-Wan the Han analog ("Dont' tell me, we've picked up another pathetic life form"), it just doesn't work - the story requires that Obi-Wan be an insider. While Liam Neeson brings some much needed gravitas and talent to TPM, I think the Qui-Gon character really undercuts the possibilities of Obi-Wan's role in the story too much. Obi-Wan could have been the Jedi bad-boy, the rebel against their stogy, stilted, out-of-touch Order. It would have also added extra context to Ben and Han crossing paths in ANH ("Who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?").
There's bits and pieces of good stuff in the Prequels, and if you stand back far enough and squint it all sort of looks good, but get close and it's a mess. A mess that doesn't have enough of the fun of its predecessors to make me want to spend much time rewatching it all.
To me, they are completely different animals. While I liked the Trek movies (most of them - I can't stand the one with the face pulling villains - Was it Insurrection or Annihilation) mildly. What I prefer are the TV series (till DS9. In VOY, I liked the Doctor and Seven 
centric episodes - but most of it was junk. Never got into ENT - Trip irritated me no end and so did the way T'Pol was written ).
In Wars, of course I love the movies (quite a bit more than Trek movies) but the TV shows are ok (nowhere near the quality levels of the best Trek shows).
centric episodes - but most of it was junk. Never got into ENT - Trip irritated me no end and so did the way T'Pol was written ).In Wars, of course I love the movies (quite a bit more than Trek movies) but the TV shows are ok (nowhere near the quality levels of the best Trek shows).
I was referring to the target demographic, not the ages of the characters themselves.Don't forget that I'm anti Teen Trek. That's four strikes against me. It's not easy having high standards.
That would carry more weight as a complaint if the new Trek film--which I also think is schlock--actually featured teenagers instead of mid-20's and 30's actors playing their ages. Well, except for Chekov, who's being played by an actor even older than the character.
So I guess I'll put down a demerit for inability to tell how old people are.
Are you kidding? They set the standard for slapstick.
I was in my early twenties when I saw Star Wars in 1977.
I was already a Trek and SF fan, as well as someone who'd studied film history in art school and had a very wide ranging interest in movies in general, both classic and foreign as well as current American film.
I was undoubtedly older (and more sophisticated) than the average person SW was intended for. It was an incredible era for American cinema - Taxi Driver, The Conversation, The Godfathers, Chinatown, The Last Picture Show, Annie Hall, Barry Lyndon, The Man Who Would Be King and on and on. These are all great films, but they're not exactly light hearted entertainment.
I had seen Lucas' THX1138 in theatrical release and been intrigued by it (not a lot of serious SF then or now on movie screens). And I'd also thoroughly enjoyed American Graffiti. Lucas was an interesting and innovative American filmmaker, so when I heard he was doing a major SF movie, and I saw the amazing looking stills, I was truly looking forward to Star Wars.
But seeing the SW as an adult, I naturally had a different take than many here for whom SW was a formative childhood experience.
I will admit to waiting in line for it on opening day.
I enjoyed the heck out of SW. I loved the execution of it - the visual storytelling was wonderful, the opening shots were amazing and iconic - it told you so much about the rebels vs the Empire in just a few short second.
The movie was also beautiful to look at (always excepting those awful buns on Princess Leia). SW was terrific fun despite the non-science and the sometimes clunky dialogue. Watching SW was an exhilerating, old fashioned movie experience, even down to the sweeping symphonic score - something that was out of fashion for the time. As a space age fairy tale, it had tons of charm.
Bu I couldn't help wishing it had been slanted toward an older audience. Of course, then it would have been a different movie entirely. But I wasn't a kid in 1977.
The Empire Strikes Back is generally held to be a better movie, but I don't like it as much. Empire was freighted with too many expectations, the portentious doings seemed to weigh down the storytelling, and I missed Lucas' breezy directorial style, the moving camera and visual flair. The acting was better of course, although the "science" in SW, what little there'd been, was long gone. Empire certainly had it's good moments ("I love you". "I know". And who could forget "Luke, I am your father"?)
But by The Return Of The Jedi, SWs started the dumbing down in earnest and becgan the long slide toward irrelevancy. This really was kid stuff, cute kid stuff now. Still massively loved by audiences, still a powerful mover of associated tie-in product. But artistically - SW was done as far as I was concerned.
The franchise had a huge impact on the movie industry - basically changed it forever. But I ceased to care after Empire.
The prequels are everything I dislike about big FX movies - cluttered, busy, poorly paced, embarrassing dialogue - did Lucas ever strand his actors! I hate the "more is better" school of movie making - if 120 aliens are good 1200 must be even better!! Why have 40 spaceships when you could have 400! Or 4000! God, no sense of scale, dynamics...I find them bloated and unwatchable.
I was already a Trek and SF fan, as well as someone who'd studied film history in art school and had a very wide ranging interest in movies in general, both classic and foreign as well as current American film.
I was undoubtedly older (and more sophisticated) than the average person SW was intended for. It was an incredible era for American cinema - Taxi Driver, The Conversation, The Godfathers, Chinatown, The Last Picture Show, Annie Hall, Barry Lyndon, The Man Who Would Be King and on and on. These are all great films, but they're not exactly light hearted entertainment.
I had seen Lucas' THX1138 in theatrical release and been intrigued by it (not a lot of serious SF then or now on movie screens). And I'd also thoroughly enjoyed American Graffiti. Lucas was an interesting and innovative American filmmaker, so when I heard he was doing a major SF movie, and I saw the amazing looking stills, I was truly looking forward to Star Wars.
But seeing the SW as an adult, I naturally had a different take than many here for whom SW was a formative childhood experience.
I will admit to waiting in line for it on opening day.
I enjoyed the heck out of SW. I loved the execution of it - the visual storytelling was wonderful, the opening shots were amazing and iconic - it told you so much about the rebels vs the Empire in just a few short second.
The movie was also beautiful to look at (always excepting those awful buns on Princess Leia). SW was terrific fun despite the non-science and the sometimes clunky dialogue. Watching SW was an exhilerating, old fashioned movie experience, even down to the sweeping symphonic score - something that was out of fashion for the time. As a space age fairy tale, it had tons of charm.
Bu I couldn't help wishing it had been slanted toward an older audience. Of course, then it would have been a different movie entirely. But I wasn't a kid in 1977.
The Empire Strikes Back is generally held to be a better movie, but I don't like it as much. Empire was freighted with too many expectations, the portentious doings seemed to weigh down the storytelling, and I missed Lucas' breezy directorial style, the moving camera and visual flair. The acting was better of course, although the "science" in SW, what little there'd been, was long gone. Empire certainly had it's good moments ("I love you". "I know". And who could forget "Luke, I am your father"?)
But by The Return Of The Jedi, SWs started the dumbing down in earnest and becgan the long slide toward irrelevancy. This really was kid stuff, cute kid stuff now. Still massively loved by audiences, still a powerful mover of associated tie-in product. But artistically - SW was done as far as I was concerned.
The franchise had a huge impact on the movie industry - basically changed it forever. But I ceased to care after Empire.
The prequels are everything I dislike about big FX movies - cluttered, busy, poorly paced, embarrassing dialogue - did Lucas ever strand his actors! I hate the "more is better" school of movie making - if 120 aliens are good 1200 must be even better!! Why have 40 spaceships when you could have 400! Or 4000! God, no sense of scale, dynamics...I find them bloated and unwatchable.
Though I am far younger than you Rackon, I mostly agree. Just two points.
(1) I don't think Return of the Jedi is as far down on the scale of being marketed towards children. Yes, it has Ewoks and a silly death for Boba Fett (a character of which expectations were built mostly by tie-in materials and not the films themselves). But it also has a fantastic confrontation between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor that is quite dark, the death of Yoda, and a pretty satisfying set-piece with the Battle for Endor. I acknowledge that Lucas was already shifting towards younger audiences (a shift that would be far more recongizable with the introduction of Jar-Jar Binks in The Phantom Menacem, as well as a very young protagonist in Anakin Skywalker). But it hadn't gotten nearly as extreme as it would in the prequels.
(2) Vader actually says, "No, I am your father." The more famous line, "Luke, I am your father" is rather like the "Beam me up, Scotty" catch-phrase on Star Trek. Which is to say, iconic, but never in the film/television series at all.
(1) I don't think Return of the Jedi is as far down on the scale of being marketed towards children. Yes, it has Ewoks and a silly death for Boba Fett (a character of which expectations were built mostly by tie-in materials and not the films themselves). But it also has a fantastic confrontation between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor that is quite dark, the death of Yoda, and a pretty satisfying set-piece with the Battle for Endor. I acknowledge that Lucas was already shifting towards younger audiences (a shift that would be far more recongizable with the introduction of Jar-Jar Binks in The Phantom Menacem, as well as a very young protagonist in Anakin Skywalker). But it hadn't gotten nearly as extreme as it would in the prequels.
(2) Vader actually says, "No, I am your father." The more famous line, "Luke, I am your father" is rather like the "Beam me up, Scotty" catch-phrase on Star Trek. Which is to say, iconic, but never in the film/television series at all.
Love the Original Trilogy. The Prequal Trilogy on the other hand....
I saw Trek years before Wars, when I was a kid. So Trek had a much bigger influence on me when growing up. It's like a Beatles vs. Elvis thing. You can like both, but not equally. I am a Trekkie first, and a Warsie second. Trek just has more depth, and more intelligence.
I started as a Star Trek fan, but while not loving it as much as Star Trek, I still really like Star Wars. It's a shame about the new trilogy, though. So much wasted potential, there. As far as I'm concerned, The Phantom Menace is 75% Crap/25% Good, Attack of the Clones is 50% Crap/50% Good, and Revenge of the Sith is 25% Crap/75% Good. So at least they improved as they went, but still, a total of half the new trilogy being crap is to much. Thank God for the skip button, though! Attack of the Clones becomes a VASTLY superior movie once you start skipping by all the painful Anikin/Amidala scenes. Obi-Wan on Kamino is far more interesting and entertaining.
I just hope that, if they do another trilogy (and I hope they do), that George Lucas has the good sense to realize his limitations. Is he great at world creation? Yes. Star Wars is one of the best realized sci-fi universe's I've ever seen. But clearly he's lost his touch when it comes to both writing dialogue and directing. Stick to the general plotline and let other people handle the scripts and directing, George! It's no coincidence that Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars movie of them all. It's the best because it's the one that you had the least to do with!
I just hope that, if they do another trilogy (and I hope they do), that George Lucas has the good sense to realize his limitations. Is he great at world creation? Yes. Star Wars is one of the best realized sci-fi universe's I've ever seen. But clearly he's lost his touch when it comes to both writing dialogue and directing. Stick to the general plotline and let other people handle the scripts and directing, George! It's no coincidence that Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars movie of them all. It's the best because it's the one that you had the least to do with!
These poll threads are interesting because most people vote and don't add anything. The ones who post something are generally negative in tendency, so if you read the thread you get a completely different picture from the poll, which shows what the majority actually voted.
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