Does it? Can you think of one successful five-year story arc for a TV show other than Babylon 5? Why do you think some people take shots at creating them in the first place?
Does a five-year story arc for a TV show actually work?
- Thread starter Joe Washington
- Start date
Well, LOST was originally intended to only be 5 seasons, and I think that would have been successful if it had been able to play out.
I definitely like the idea for a planned 5-year arc, but you run into one of two problems:
1) The show isn't popular enough to run for 5 full seasons, so it ends early. Hopefully the writers are able to come up with a decent ending for it.
2) The show is too popular, and the networks force it to continue beyond its intended story (I believe Supernatural most recently fits into this category).
It's hard for a network to let go of a show if it's still popular in its "final" season.
I definitely like the idea for a planned 5-year arc, but you run into one of two problems:
1) The show isn't popular enough to run for 5 full seasons, so it ends early. Hopefully the writers are able to come up with a decent ending for it.
2) The show is too popular, and the networks force it to continue beyond its intended story (I believe Supernatural most recently fits into this category).
It's hard for a network to let go of a show if it's still popular in its "final" season.
L
Lord Garth
Guest
I don't like the idea of a five-year story arc for television because you don't know how long your series is going to last.
The first hurdle is getting the series sold, the second hurdle is getting it to survive an entire first season, the third hurdle is getting a second season. The fourth hurdle is finally being able to get enough episodes for syndication. Enough episodes to be shown once per weekday without repeating an episode more than three or four times in a year. It's hard.
One of the best and worst things about Star Trek was that seven seasons were eventually taken for granted. Great that they had so much time to work with, bad that they would dilly dally until later seasons.
The approach that Matt Weiner takes for Mad Men is the best: assume every season is the last and tell all the story you can. I understand some people don't like the pacing of Mad Men but I'm not talking about that, just the mentality of any year could be the end.
One of the best decisions Ron Moore made about Battlestar Galactica was to definitively end the series after four seasons when Sci Fi wasn't sure if they wanted to go for four or five. Then Sci-Fi had their cake and ate it too with "five" seasons, by dragging out the fourth for two years.
The first hurdle is getting the series sold, the second hurdle is getting it to survive an entire first season, the third hurdle is getting a second season. The fourth hurdle is finally being able to get enough episodes for syndication. Enough episodes to be shown once per weekday without repeating an episode more than three or four times in a year. It's hard.
One of the best and worst things about Star Trek was that seven seasons were eventually taken for granted. Great that they had so much time to work with, bad that they would dilly dally until later seasons.
The approach that Matt Weiner takes for Mad Men is the best: assume every season is the last and tell all the story you can. I understand some people don't like the pacing of Mad Men but I'm not talking about that, just the mentality of any year could be the end.
One of the best decisions Ron Moore made about Battlestar Galactica was to definitively end the series after four seasons when Sci Fi wasn't sure if they wanted to go for four or five. Then Sci-Fi had their cake and ate it too with "five" seasons, by dragging out the fourth for two years.
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S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
Way too many variables in a tv show. Actors, writing, network demands, ratings, etc etc. B5 even changed heavily.
Heroes was planned for five years, but Tim Kring had issues with his writing when it came to the planning out of the series with specific regards to how long some of the plot threads took to conclude and the ratings dropped. The Writers Strike also played a part and so Heroes was cancelled after four years. I stopped watching it early in season four.
The 4400 also had a plan, and that was cancelled prematurely as well. As did Battlestar Galactica.
The biggest problem for these shows is network interference on character arcs and scheduling changes. IMHO
The 4400 also had a plan, and that was cancelled prematurely as well. As did Battlestar Galactica.
The biggest problem for these shows is network interference on character arcs and scheduling changes. IMHO
I would say that Angel got a pretty 5 years run, too.
But it wasn't planned that way. It was pretty clear from watching that they were expecting to have a 6th season. The end of Season 5 is incredibly rushed and ends with a frickin' cliffhanger!
Yeah, unless there's a source let's not make stuff up. In fact last I heard Heroes was likely to be renewed in part due to NBC needing to fill the Leno holes.
Back to the original point, 5-year arcs can work if the story is mapped out before the cameras roll. Too often producers claim they have a 5-year plan, but it becomes obvious they don't want to stick with it - or the plan isn't strong enough.
Even with B5, the producers needed to make changes when their lead actor quit after only the first season. When Boxleitner came in, it completely changed the dynamic and pacing. Fortunately, it arguably worked.
On the other hand, you have Heroes which attemped to follow its original vision but had to change due to ratings and network pressures. Alias I think also had a multi-year arc planned, until Abrams caved to whatever pressure was placed upon him and ended the SD-6 infiltration arc prematurely. The show continued but never really recovered. Lost has managed to keep things going, but not everyone believes the show has followed a consistent game plan since day 1.
The biggest problem is the fact that as long as American networks (and others - it's not just a US thing) rely on ratings and the like to gauge success of a show, a 5-year arc is very unlikely to be ever completed. So you end up with situations like Threshold which was not only planned out as a multi-year arc, but they even intended to change the title of the series each season. But the show failed to garner enough viewers, the network cancelled it after a dozen episodes, and the story was left unfinished. Wonderfalls had its story arc up to Season 3 mapped out -- Fox cancelled it in four episodes and at least the producers were able to complete the original 13 episodes and complete the initial chapter of the arc, giving some semblance of a complete story.
Even soap operas can't be relied upon anymore for multi-year arcs. Just ask anyone who started a multi-year arc for Guiding Light back in 2008.
The only way a truly-formed multi-year arc is going to be possible is if a TV producer manages to cut a guaranteed-run deal with a network, and also locks in key cast members into an iron-clad contract. Unlikely on both accounts.
Multi-year arcs are fine. But logistically they're not feasible. Which is why you're more likely to see season-long arcs like that seen in shows like NCIS and Doctor Who and, of course, 24. It's easier to negotiate a complete single season than multiple years.
Alex
Or maybe people just need to make sure their shows are awesome before they ever make it on the air. 
I'm tired of the "Don't worry, it gets better in Season 2" dynamic that shows have these days. Why do we need to wait for it to get better in Season 2? Why couldn't you have made it awesome right from the start?
I'm tired of the "Don't worry, it gets better in Season 2" dynamic that shows have these days. Why do we need to wait for it to get better in Season 2? Why couldn't you have made it awesome right from the start?
Excellent points, although your first condition sadly almost never happens.
I think I prefer season-to-season story archs, and if you get more than a few seasons then you can try to tie it all in.
Say what?
AtS season 6, for the most part is in comic form (After the Fall--read it, folks), The only major difference is that they killed Wesley in Not Fade Away to give him closure, whereas he wasn't supposed to die until the finale of season 6. He's a ghost in After the Fall. Amy Acker (Fred) spoiled years before the comics were written that Gunn was supposed to become a vampire in season 6. Most of that series is what season 6 would have been. The road warrior thing was only in the sense of everyone being in Hell.
Similarly, the story that was supposed to be the Faith T.V. movie got pulverized and turned into No Future For You. And the Buffy Animated Series pilot was turned into After These Messages... We'll Be Right Back!
And actually BtVS wasn't supposed to end at season 7 either. It was Sarah Michelle Gellar who wanted out. And it's quite clear from season 8 that the story wasn't over and there was a whole mess of loose ends (believe it or not) towards the end of the series about why Buffy, in particular, was in such a rut (and had just learned that the Slayer origins were demonic). Also, Fray was written before BtVS ended, and if you've read that, you know that BtVS and AtS both need some massive follow-up to link them towards that dystopian future where demons/vampires were kicked out of the dimension (but leaked back in somehow).
And as for Angel's story post-After the Fall, well... Spoilersville. The Frayverse demon exile that I won't spoil here... The Shanshu question (an unfulfilled plotline which is now on its 10th birthday!)... Lots of things still left to be answered with him.
Spike is still pretty much a baby to his new heroic journey. That story has still barely begun. Ditto with Faith.
So there's one franchise that kind of all is one story (and lately it's been marrying itself again). 11 1/2 seasons plus two comic lines (and a whole lot of extraneous earlier comics which are both canon and non-canon).
And if you've seen season 4 of AtS, it never made fans of episodic television very happy (it happens mostly in 4 weeks--it's as unforgiving to just jumping in as Heroes can be). AtS, even more than BtVS, was known for barely taking a breather on its serial storytelling. And those shows like to reference things that happened years ago all the time.
I'm a serial television fan because I have the brain for it. I like intricate, self-referencing, lengthy storytelling.
And 5 years isn't enough. Comics that matter (which I follow for BtVS, AtS and Heroes) really help. Roswell, sadly, felt like a very short 3 seasons. I'm aware of canon books that followed, but they're apparently rare/expensive beyond belief.
I even like gleaning the could-have-happened bits from BtVS and AtS non-canon comics (I really have a soft spot for the year 1 comics, especially), deleted script scenes, non-canon books, etc...
I mean, I am on a Trekkie website here. You should relate! Star Wars was the first fandom that introduced me to the world of a fandom that follows a never-ending story.
I hope Heroes keeps going in some form. I think comics would work. That's already established.
Similarly, the story that was supposed to be the Faith T.V. movie got pulverized and turned into No Future For You. And the Buffy Animated Series pilot was turned into After These Messages... We'll Be Right Back!
And actually BtVS wasn't supposed to end at season 7 either. It was Sarah Michelle Gellar who wanted out. And it's quite clear from season 8 that the story wasn't over and there was a whole mess of loose ends (believe it or not) towards the end of the series about why Buffy, in particular, was in such a rut (and had just learned that the Slayer origins were demonic). Also, Fray was written before BtVS ended, and if you've read that, you know that BtVS and AtS both need some massive follow-up to link them towards that dystopian future where demons/vampires were kicked out of the dimension (but leaked back in somehow).
And as for Angel's story post-After the Fall, well... Spoilersville. The Frayverse demon exile that I won't spoil here... The Shanshu question (an unfulfilled plotline which is now on its 10th birthday!)... Lots of things still left to be answered with him.
Spike is still pretty much a baby to his new heroic journey. That story has still barely begun. Ditto with Faith.
So there's one franchise that kind of all is one story (and lately it's been marrying itself again). 11 1/2 seasons plus two comic lines (and a whole lot of extraneous earlier comics which are both canon and non-canon).
And if you've seen season 4 of AtS, it never made fans of episodic television very happy (it happens mostly in 4 weeks--it's as unforgiving to just jumping in as Heroes can be). AtS, even more than BtVS, was known for barely taking a breather on its serial storytelling. And those shows like to reference things that happened years ago all the time.
I'm a serial television fan because I have the brain for it. I like intricate, self-referencing, lengthy storytelling.
And 5 years isn't enough. Comics that matter (which I follow for BtVS, AtS and Heroes) really help. Roswell, sadly, felt like a very short 3 seasons. I'm aware of canon books that followed, but they're apparently rare/expensive beyond belief.
I even like gleaning the could-have-happened bits from BtVS and AtS non-canon comics (I really have a soft spot for the year 1 comics, especially), deleted script scenes, non-canon books, etc...
I mean, I am on a Trekkie website here. You should relate! Star Wars was the first fandom that introduced me to the world of a fandom that follows a never-ending story.
I hope Heroes keeps going in some form. I think comics would work. That's already established.
I'd like it if more shows found a happy middle ground between being totally thought out ahead of time like Babylon 5 and completely making it up as they go like Lost (sorry, I know the writers say otherwise - but they have to be lying ) or Battlestar Galactica.
Personally I think the mythology and major beats of the overall plot should be figured out ahead of time, but characters relationships and arcs should be more fluid and based on how the actors are reacting to the material.
) or Battlestar Galactica. Personally I think the mythology and major beats of the overall plot should be figured out ahead of time, but characters relationships and arcs should be more fluid and based on how the actors are reacting to the material.
^I would argue that Lost is alot closer to what you want than you think. They definitely had an idea when they started of where they intended to go. They have just made adjustments as time has gone by to play towards the audience's favors. BSG on the other hand had no idea where it was going after season one. Most notably displayed by Ron Moore's "it's not the plot, it's the characters, stupid" comments from mid season 2. It only went downhill from there.
Yes. Cheers.
No, don't laugh (well, you will because it's funny, but don't.) The first five years of that show have one long torturous continuous story arc of the Sam and Diane on again off again on again on for sure off forever on again off again forever over forever together relationship. It was riveting television. It wasn't preplanned five years in advance, the story beats overlap a helluva lot (as my terrible sentence construction implies) but it was successful; as it provided a very solid comic framework and the backdrop to five years of sitcom antics.
Because of how it can work, pretty much. I think Babylon 5 best illustrated this in the "War Without End" two-parter, where plot threads from the past, present and future suddenly crystallize and ram together in very interesting ways. It's all slow burn then payoff! Without such elements I doubt B5 would be remembered as fondly as it is, if at all. That degree of intertextuality is very appealing - a few lines from a year ago spell out implications addressed a year later; your final act suggested in the first episode, and so on.
In theory, essentially, TV can give us novels in cinematic form. That's a pretty great idea on paper, though the execution - real life being a messy business - could be and is frought.
Lost is working out fine.
How long a story arc should run for depends on the premise of the series.
How long a story arc should run for depends on the premise of the series.
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