Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)

[Servo]

...and before 2005, they could be defeated by going up stairs

At the risk of being pedantic, the Daleks have been able to fly independently since Remembrance of the Daleks in 1988. Previous to that, they've been shown to hover or fly by other means, such as the anti-grav disk used in Planet of the Daleks.

 

[Jim Steele]

Too bad the majority of us here (including me) disagree

Why is that "too bad"?

Anyway, thankfully I enjoyed it much more on the second viewing (y'know, I didn't go out of my way to dislike it - I love Doctor Who, despite what some fanboiz may want to think).

My expectations were, like towing the Earth, too overblown. I was genuinely expecting it to match or better "Doomsday", and I guess that's just too much to ask.

[yahtzee] If nothing else, at least RTD has succeeded in lowering my standards. [/yahtzee]

 

[Jim Steele]

The old Doctor who stuff was far more over the top than this stuff so I don't see the problem.

Care to be specific?

It amazes me that fans say some stuff is stupid (towing Earth in this case) but they have no problem with a Time Lord who can regenerate who flies in a police box fighting enemies such as Daleks who are basically the campiest sounded enemies ever with a plunger attached to them and before 2005, they could be defeated by going up stairs

Oh jesus, I can't stand this sort of argument. That the show has a fantastic premise doesn't give it license to throw suspension of disbelief to the dogs.

My complaint about the "Reality Bomb" wasn't so much that I couldn't believe it, or that it in itself was "stupid", it was more that it seemed to be born of the thinking that a bigger weapon = more peril, or just bigger = better. The episode simply didn't have any tension whatsoever, despite the enemy having a weapon that would truly DESTROY REALITY ITSELF.

Then the Earth-towing scene that came right after was executed with such pomposity and cock-wavery that it didn't impress, rather it pissed me off.

in the end Doctor Who is silly fun and thats why we love it

I love Doctor Who every bit as much as you do. In fact, probably more since I was into the classic series way before you started watching the revived series. That's why it irks me so much when it fucks up.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Looks like last nights episode did indeed pull in some massive viewing figures.....9.4 million to be precise....WOW..

Dr who pulls in 9.4 million viewers

I was expecting 9 - 10 million for this

Yeah i was expecting these type of figures as well considering all the hype the last episode caused......i think this Xmas the season 4 boxset of Who is going to be a big Xmas seller seeing as it was a cracker from beginning too end.

 

[Remy]

10million viewers, number 1 show for the week, an AI of 91... it's just unbelievable.
Someone wake me up.

 

[Mr Awe]

[
They spend all this time setting up the end of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. The day is saved by Donna receiving the Doctor's mind, fair enough. That was foreshadowed and was justifiable technobabble. But they save the day by throwing a few switches. The ENTIRE UNIVERSE and they throw a few switches, like in every other fucking RTD episode. RTD's utter lack of ingenuity or imagination popped out of the TV and gave us a nice mouth-fucking. I was fisted by his incompetence. Awful.

That's my biggest problem with the episode as well. There were other things, but in a nutshell, the too simple solution was a huge let down. RTD consistently does characters well but is pretty terrible at the plotting.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

I think it'll take an awfull lot of SFX and build up to come up with an episode to rival this one, it just doesn't seem possible to beat, imo.

SFx doesn't have anything to do with beating this episode. I'm sure there will be even more SFx laden episodes in the future. That's a guarantee. Nah, it's simple what it'll take to beat this one is a plot that makes fricking sense. One where the answers don't flow out of nowhere and too easily defeat the enemy. This episode had tons of spectacle but little substance. You beat this episode by one with more substance.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Just a quick thought. Why didn't the Doctor give Rose the choice of returning to her own Universe?
Isn't that a bit cruel?

Yep, that was a bit forced. Obviously, if she was in our universe there is no conceivable reason why she and the human Doctor wouldn't actually travel with the real Doctor. But that won't work for real world reasons. So, the forced split just like the original time Rose was stuck in the alternate reality. But supposedly she was dumped there because the human Doctor was too dangerous in our universe. Huh? Is he any safer in the other one? If he's so dangerous, isn't Rose in danger? Bizarre.

It seemed like there was one 'deus ex machina' after the other.

Becareful, you'll get the D.E.M. hit squad after you!

Mr Awe

 

[Flibble]

So, will The Doctor be looking for a new companion or will Martha be back?

 

[Starkers]

I think it'll take an awfull lot of SFX and build up to come up with an episode to rival this one, it just doesn't seem possible to beat, imo.

SFx doesn't have anything to do with beating this episode. I'm sure there will be even more SFx laden episodes in the future. That's a guarantee. Nah, it's simple what it'll take to beat this one is a plot that makes fricking sense. One where the answers don't flow out of nowhere and too easily defeat the enemy. This episode had tons of spectacle but little substance. You beat this episode by one with more substance.

Mr Awe

Scary when people harp on about SFX as one of the measures of how good an episode is. I'm looking forward to Moffat's take on a season finale (although we will have to wait a while!) but for all we know he'll go the spic route as well, I do feel he's better at plotting than RTD however.

 

[Starkers]

So, will The Doctor be looking for a new companion or will Martha be back?

Martha won't be back. Way I understand it the Doctor will have a different companion in each of the specials. I could be mistaken though.

 

[Mr Awe]

it builds on things which started in Genesis, when the Doctor pitches a 'thought problem' to Davros about wiping out all life in the universe, and Davros says 'I would do it' (and tries to do it in Journey's End, in a different way). Then we get the Dalek that kills itself rather than be human in the 2005 season; followed up by an elite group of Daleks who're allowed to think like Humans in Doomsday, one of whom tries to find a place for the Daleks as a normal species in Evolution (etc). And now, another of these enhanced Daleks makes the choice the Doctor couldn't make - to decide that the Daleks don't deserve to exist (flipping Dalek attitudes back on themselves).
And the Doctor still rejects that, but we get two Doctors so one can make the genocidal choice the Doctor rejected back in Genesis.

This is all interesting and true. However, the darn story was so rushed that it really wasn't fleshed out. There was so much crammed in at the expense of the story.

Thematically, I can't get my head around why the return of Rose would be suggested through two series, then when she does finally return she and the Doctor not having one meaningful conversation. Mr. Smith seemed to have more dialogue! The Doctor has supposedly been pining for his lost companion for two series, then the minute she gets back he drops her off back where she started? And doesn't even say goodbye to Jackie? Although obviously not intended (and hints were attempted at showing the Doctor's pain)

I mean the whole Bad Wolf bay scene really didn't work for me.

It didn't work for me either. This is all an example of things being rushed too much. There was not enough time to flesh things out and things suffered because of it.

Jackie and Mickey were criminally underused.

More rushing.

What is it with these people who cant understand people might have voted fantastic because they really, really enjoyed the episode?

I'll grant that there was a ton of spectacle in this thing. It probably gave you a rush at the time but there were too many problems with it for me to enjoy it personally.

Mr Awe

 

[Chaos Descending]

Well, McCoy was in confidential, dressed like The Doctor, for no apparent reason a couple of weeks ago. So, that's a possibility. I guess we'll see on the 27th. Unless it gets leaked onto the net.

Actually, that's not exactly true.

Sylvester McCoy the person (not the Doctor) actually dresses like that in real life.

That's what he wears.

 

[Mr Awe]

Mr. Awe: You just proved my point about the rating system again.

If you were so disappointed by the episode, then why give it an "Above Average?" Or are you saying being disappointed is above the average for Doctor Who

Well, I almost gave it an average but it had enough good stuff that that felt insufficient. I think this is a case where it had some great stuff and some terrible stuff, rather than being consistentlly good or bad.

I would've been most happy giving this episode something between an Average and Above average. A 3.5/5 or a 7 on a 10 point scale.

I guess in the end, it had some big problems but I was still entertained so that counted for something. That's what boosted it a bit, still being entertained to a degree.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Mr. Awe: You just proved my point about the rating system again.

If you were so disappointed by the episode, then why give it an "Above Average?" Or are you saying being disappointed is above the average for Doctor Who

I think its a matter of degree. I was dissapointed by Journey's End, but I still enjoyed it, it just wasn't as brilliant as the Stolen Earth. I said last season that the rating system should be wider.

That's it in a nutshell. Basically, I still felt entertained so I couldn't give it below average despite serious problems. But, due to the serious problems I couldn't rate it much higher than average. I still had fun watching it though!

And, I definitely agree about changing the rating system.

Mr Awe

 

[The Nth Doctor]

What, memory wiping wasn't big enough for you? I think that's a fate worse than death.

Totally, the person we know as Donna is dead. Watching her at the end gossiping on the phone was horribly sad; she became this absolutely brilliant character (and that's even before the, what did they call it, metacrisis?) and all of that was taken away and will never be again. And the Doctor has to leave her behind knowing he can never see her again. That's far worse then if she had simply died. It really is "everlasting death"...

What about the humans who were vaporized as well as a bunch of unit soldiers who were exterminated?

The "everlasting death" was only in reference to the "most loyal companion," i.e. Donna.

 

[Hobs202]

Too bad the majority of us here (including me) disagree

Why is that "too bad"?

No idea. Just something I felt like saying.

 

[Mr Awe]

Yeah I had a few gripes about the episode, but they were relatively minor. Hell even the slightly silly scene of the Tardis towing the Earth was saved by some amazing music and the pure emotion of the scene. I grew up on Tom Baker, I'm used to certain level of goofiness with my drama. Its part of the shows charm.

Speaking for myself, I grew up on Tom Baker too, so goofiness is NOT the problem. There were huge wonking problems with the plot, wasted characters, too easy solution, etc. I still enjoyed it, but the problems were not the goofiness.

Mr Awe

 

[Samurai8472]

Having never seen torchwood Gwen's looking real hot with some of her mannerisms.

"There goes the time lock"

and the battlecry that probably shook up Ianto lol

Rewatching the end I could see Doctor 2 telling Rose Donna wouldn't have long to "live"

Rose- What will happen to Donna?

Doctor 2-.............

Donna at the end breaking down and repeating made me think of Chamelion.

 

[Starkers]

Mr. Awe: You just proved my point about the rating system again.

If you were so disappointed by the episode, then why give it an "Above Average?" Or are you saying being disappointed is above the average for Doctor Who

I think its a matter of degree. I was dissapointed by Journey's End, but I still enjoyed it, it just wasn't as brilliant as the Stolen Earth. I said last season that the rating system should be wider.

That's it in a nutshell. Basically, I still felt entertained so I couldn't give it below average despite serious problems. But, due to the serious problems I couldn't rate it much higher than average. I still had fun watching it though!

And, I definitely agree about changing the rating system.

Mr Awe

I always thought it should go something like:

Fantastic
Good
Above Average
Average
Below Average
Poor
Fear Her (er I mean terrible! )

I'd give Journey's End a good, but for me The Stolen Earth was a fantastic!