Doctor Who – 4x06 – The Doctor’s Daughter (Grade/Discuss)

[Brendan Moody]

I understand where people who want Jenny to have been "real" are coming from; I think it was bound to be disappointing to get the usual instant-child sci-fi cliche. However, I don't think having her be a pre-existing daughter would have worked within the context of this story. Aside from the narrative problem that you would have to get into Time Lord-y backstory and "how did she survive the Time War" and "why didn't the Doctor sense her"-- in other words, stuff that would have made this episode into even more of a series three finale retread than it already was, and broken the story-element camel's back-- that would soften one of the themes of the episode, and indeed of the new series as a whole.

At first the Doctor rejects Jenny for the same reason some fans are-- she doesn't count because she's not properly his daughter. He does this not because it's a well worked out scientific argument, but (as he tells Donna) because he's emotionally burnt out from losing his family in the Time War and doesn't want to take the risk of connecting with her. In other words, he's making excuses to avoid a real commitment, just like he does whenever a companion pushes him to relate to people. The excuse fails because he's presented with evidence that she is already connected to him. Like in the moment when he's listening to her hearts beating and having that "Oh dear god you came from me" moment that parents who aren't in Instant-Child-Just-Add-Plot-Device scenarios have with newborns. If the story had been about Susan's mother or whoever he wouldn't have had the same grounds to reject her, and you'd lose his accepting this new relationship just in time to have it torn away from him. You could still try to hit the same story beats, but I don't think they would have the same impact without Jenny's unorthodox origin. Plus, of course, her being a product of the machine unifies the themes of militarism and the "endless" war in a way that they wouldn't be if it was just Romana Jr. participating in a local conflict for reasons of her own. Again, there's still story potential there, and you get to the same themes in a new way, but I think that at some point one has to judge the episode on its own merits rather than asking why it isn't something completely different with the same title.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Aside from the narrative problem that you would have to get into Time Lord-y backstory and "how did she survive the Time War" and "why didn't the Doctor sense her"

Simple: E-Space (as outlined in my post above yours).

-- in other words, stuff that would have made this episode into even more of a series three finale retread than it already was, and broken the story-element camel's back-- that would soften one of the themes of the episode, and indeed of the new series as a whole.

Except finding an offspring of his either presumed dead or otherwise unknown (Romana theory) would have a different kind of resonance from The Master returning.

 

[Servo]

Please, tell me nobody actually, seriously believed that she would end up being his real daughter? I mean, come on.

My theory before the episode was that the Doctor's DNA had been used in a deliberate attempt to create a kind of super soldier by splicing Time Lord DNA with Human soldiers, to fight in some war somewhere (which I think would have been a bit cooler than what we got), but I never once thought that she'd actually end up being a true daughter of his.

 

[wamdue]

Please, tell me nobody actually, seriously believed that she would end up being his real daughter? I mean, come on.

not wanting to read spoilers, I had not yet ruled it out.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Simple: E-Space (as outlined in my post above yours).

And then you have to explain to all the new fans what E-Space is and why she went there and why she came back and why the Doctor didn't think to look there and why she's on Messaline and... Nothing simple about it. Plus it feels like a retread of the whole void thing from "Doomsday," which was itself the third "no, really, here's the last survivor of the Time War" story in two years.

Except finding an offspring of his either presumed dead or otherwise unknown (Romana theory) would have a different kind of resonance from The Master returning.

It would (just as what they actually did has a different resonance to either), but it would be even more recognizably a spin on the same material. There's enough complaining about new series formulas as it is...

Oh, and I see USS KG5 said in four lines what took me two rambling paragraphs. Nicely done.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Please, tell me nobody actually, seriously believed that she would end up being his real daughter? I mean, come on.

No, I didn't believe, but I sincerely hoped she would be. Especially with RTD's quote "doing exactly as the tin says."

Simple: E-Space (as outlined in my post above yours).

And then you have to explain to all the new fans what E-Space is and why she went there and why she came back and why the Doctor didn't think to look there and why she's on Messaline and... Nothing simple about it.

I don't see how. Just a couple of minutes of explanation is all that would be needed. "Romana was an old traveling companion of mine, who left my company in another universe that we were stuck in at the time." That's all the new series fans need to know, and if they want to know more (like with Sarah Jane, K-9, the Daleks, Time Lords, Sontarans, Cybermen, Macra and so on), they can watch the classic series. Surely that's no worse than what we actually got?

Plus it feels like a retread of the whole void thing from "Doomsday," which was itself the third "no, really, here's the last survivor of the Time War" story in two years.

If it can be done with the enemy, then why not with the ally, too?

Except finding an offspring of his either presumed dead or otherwise unknown (Romana theory) would have a different kind of resonance from The Master returning.

It would (just as what they actually did has a different resonance to either), but it would be even more recognizably a spin on the same material. There's enough complaining about new series formulas as it is...

Again, I don't see how. One is an ancient enemy (and possibly former friend) while the other is family. Very different story potential.

 

[Servo]

Please, tell me nobody actually, seriously believed that she would end up being his real daughter? I mean, come on.

not wanting to read spoilers, I had not yet ruled it out.

I don't read spoilers either.

Maybe I'm just cynical, or expect everything to be not quite as it appears, but for me, just calling the episode "The Doctor's Daughter" pretty much ruled out any possibility of her actually being his proper daughter. There was always going to be some other explaination, such as the Time Lord warrior thingy I thought it would be before the episode aired - which I was kinda right about, except that in my theory, it was a deliberate action, rather than it just happening on the off chance like it did in the episode.

 

[wamdue]

Simple: E-Space (as outlined in my post above yours).

And then you have to explain to all the new fans what E-Space is and why she went there and why she came back and why the Doctor didn't think to look there and why she's on Messaline and... Nothing simple about it. Plus it feels like a retread of the whole void thing from "Doomsday," which was itself the third "no, really, here's the last survivor of the Time War" story in two years.

because the return of the Master didnt face similar problems?

 

[wamdue]

Please, tell me nobody actually, seriously believed that she would end up being his real daughter? I mean, come on.

not wanting to read spoilers, I had not yet ruled it out.

I don't read spoilers either.

Maybe I'm just cynical, or expect everything to be not quite as it appears, but for me, just calling the episode "The Doctor's Daughter" pretty much ruled out any possibility of her actually being his proper daughter. There was always going to be some other explaination, such as the Time Lord warrior thingy I thought it would be before the episode aired - which I was kinda right about, except that in my theory, it was a deliberate action, rather than it just happening on the off chance like it did in the episode.

you arnt wrong, the BBC was very open about the fact she was his daughter, even to go as far as both name the episode, after that fact, and mention it in "next week on Doctor Who.." I guess we should have seen that they were being to honest and to expect a twist.

I was fully expecting her to die in the episode, and then I was fully expecting her to regenerate in some fashion.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Can't believe we're 6 episodes into S4 and there hasn't been a naff episode yet!

We've not really had an outstanding one either though.

I managed to catch the episode on catch up TV. Not bad, interesting twist what with the multiple generations and all that. I guess an episode is too short a time to delve into a father-daughter relationship when all sorts of other nonsense is happening (like the goings on of someone superfluous on the surface of the planet for example )

 

[Brendan Moody]

I don't see how. Just a couple of minutes of explanation. "Romana was an old companion of mine, who left my company in another universe that we were stuck in at the time." That's all the new series fans need to know. Surely that's no worse than what we actually got?

That's only the tip of the iceberg. You're not giving the audience enough credit for its ability to think these things through. If Romana was alive in another universe, why didn't the Doctor, who is constantly boo-hooing about being all alone after the Time War, go find her, especially if they'd been close enough that they were having hot Time Lord sex? OK, you say, he didn't because he couldn't get through the CVEs safely. Well, then, how did Romana Jr. get out herself? Well, mumble mumble, technobabble, she got away with it. Why did she get out? Why is she now fighting on Messaline? Why is she trained as a soldier? I'm sure you (or I) could come up with answers, but the question is how to get them across without drowning the opening of the episode in exposition. I think it would be very difficult to lay this scenario out as quickly as "The Doctor's Daughter" does, especially considering that the explanation for Jenny's origin is neatly woven into the backstory of the war on Messaline, so two kinds of infodump are going on at once.

Try looking back at the hoops the series three finale jumps through to explain how the Master is still around and the Doctor doesn't know it. There's a surprising amount of explanation woven into "Utopia" and "Last of the Time Lords," which works for your epic three-part finale and less so for your midseason standalone.

If it can be done with the enemy, then why not for the ally, too?

Because every time you do it gets more soap opera and less plausible. It's the knock-on effect, not a problem with the basic idea. Have you forgotten the cries of "not more Dalek survivors" when "Doomsday" aired? At the time I didn't agree, but now I'm glad they've decided to keep the same set of Daleks around rather than dredging up more implausible survivors.

Again, I don't see how. One is an ancient enemy (and possibly former friend) while the other is family. Very different story potential.

Yes, it has different story potential. But it's the same underlying concept, "hidden Time Lord who survived the Time War." There's still room to complain about the similarity, just like there's still room for people to complain that every alien invasion story has a mundane object turn into a threat, or that every RTD finale has billions of aliens invading the Earth.

wamdue, the return of the Master did face similar problems. It's why I only want them to go to the "secret Time Lord survivor" well once, Rani and Romana and Iris Wildthyme be damned.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I don't see how. Just a couple of minutes of explanation. "Romana was an old companion of mine, who left my company in another universe that we were stuck in at the time." That's all the new series fans need to know. Surely that's no worse than what we actually got?

That's only the tip of the iceberg. You're not giving the audience enough credit for its ability to think these things through. If Romana was alive in another universe, why didn't the Doctor, who is constantly boo-hooing about being all alone after the Time War, go find her, especially if they'd been close enough that they were having hot Time Lord sex? OK, you say, he didn't because he couldn't get through the CVEs safely. Well, then, how did Romana Jr. get out herself? Well, mumble mumble, technobabble, she got away with it. Why did she get out?

Or maybe The Doctor couldn't crossover because of his TARDIS (maybe because of the Time War or for some other reason) and Romana Jr. could crossover because of some technological advancement in E-Space (or maybe because of Romana and K-9 themselves, who have been studying E-Space for a long period of time).

Why is she now fighting on Messaline? Why is she trained as a soldier? I'm sure you (or I) could come up with answers, but the question is how to get them across without drowning the opening of the episode in exposition. I think it would be very difficult to lay this scenario out as quickly as "The Doctor's Daughter" does, especially considering that the explanation for Jenny's origin is neatly woven into the backstory of the war on Messaline, so two kinds of infodump are going on at once.

But who says The Doctor's daughter has to be involved with the war on Messaline? I'm talking about story potential in general. The Messaline storyline was built around The Doctor's daughter idea.

If it can be done with the enemy, then why not for the ally, too?

Because every time you do it gets more soap opera and less plausible. It's the knock-on effect, not a problem with the basic idea. Have you forgotten the cries of "not more Dalek survivors" when "Doomsday" aired? At the time I didn't agree, but now I'm glad they've decided to keep the same set of Daleks around rather than dredging up more implausible survivors.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I didn't want the Daleks coming back either (hell, I didn't want them to return after "Dalek"), so I think that plausibility barrier has long since been bypassed. My point is if we're to believe it happened to one side, then how hard is it to believe it can happen for the other side?

Again, I don't see how. One is an ancient enemy (and possibly former friend) while the other is family. Very different story potential.

Yes, it has different story potential. But it's the same underlying concept, "hidden Time Lord who survived the Time War." There's still room to complain about the similarity, just like there's still room for people to complain that every alien invasion story has a mundane object turn into a threat, or that every RTD finale has billions of aliens invading the Earth.

Generally I would agree, but in this one instance I think it's vitally different because family connection is an important theme, which this episode tried to artificially create and failed terribly.

 

[Brendan Moody]

But who says The Doctor's daughter has to be involved with the war on Messaline? I'm talking about story potential in general. The Messaline storyline was built around The Doctor's daughter idea.

I'm not sure that last sentence is accurate- as with any story, I imagine it was more complicated than that. But I quibble. I don't have any objection to people saying, "If they'd made an entirely different episode then the episode could have been entirely different." I just wonder how useful a criticism it is. It's very easy to suggest alternative scenarios that sound more interesting when they're just ideas floating around message boards. I'm interested in the way the episode they actually made fits into the structure, motifs, themes, and character arcs of the series, and in how easy it would have been to do all that while tweaking a major part of the premise.

My point is if we're to believe it happened to one side, then how hard is it to believe it can happen for the other side?

And my point is that, regardless of which side they're on, it becomes more embarrassing and implausible every time it happens. Dramatically it's a form of having their cake and eating it too- getting the impact of wiping both sides out but still being able to do stories where they're around.

Generally I would agree, but in this one instance I think it's vitally different because a family connection is an important theme, which this episode tried to artificially create and failed terribly.

I think it did create a family connection, of the immediate "dadshock" sense rather than the substantively different "surviving relative" variety. But to each his own.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

But who says The Doctor's daughter has to be involved with the war on Messaline? I'm talking about story potential in general. The Messaline storyline was built around The Doctor's daughter idea.

I'm not sure that last sentence is accurate- as with any story, I imagine it was more complicated than that.

Actually, the Confidential episode revealed that's exactly how it was. Stephen Greenhorn was given the title of the episode and was told to work from there.

As for everything else, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ElScoob]

Ok. I'm writing this up without reading the rest of the thread, because I want to get my thoughts out uninfluenced by anything else.

I'd skimmed through a review or two of the episode, none of them overly favorable, and I'd expected to be disappointed by it. I was a bit let down from the get go because I'd gotten it in my head that Jenny might be the Doctor's actual daughter, as in like for real, from Gallifrey, maybe Susan's mother, somehow survived the War, all of that. I'd seen in the reviews that she was just something a machine popped out based on the Doctor's DNA, and that put me off a bit.

(I'd read the same thing previously, in early spoilers, but RTD's comments about the episode 'doing what it says on the tin' muddied the waters a bit for me.)

Anyhow: expectations going in were low.

Maybe that helped.

I really kind of dug this one. It was fun. It had a lot of running around in corridors ('love the running'). It had lots of little elements that put me in mind of old episodes; the two factions warring underground made me think a bit of "Genesis of the Daleks", the journey through the maze of corridors puzzling things out along the way made me think of "Death To The Daleks". The colony-gone-awry made me think of "The Face Of Evil"...

I could go on, but the main thing was that this episode--like others this season--really got the feel of old school Doctor Who down pat. As much as I've enjoyed the revived series, I've never gotten that feeling so strongly as I have this year.

And, to be frank, boiling down what could have been fodder for a middling-to-mediocre four- or six-part serial twenty or thirty years ago to a single forty-five minute story really worked well for me here.

I just enjoyed the heck out of this one. Maybe not as much as I did the Sontaran two-parter, but I enjoyed it, and more than I expected to. The business of the war only having gone on for a week caught me out of nowhere. Perhaps the 'generations' clue should have given it away, but I guess I'm just slow today.

Tennant's acting during and after Jenny's death was great. Donna was great, too (good on her for being the one to sort it out!). Georgia Moffet as Jenny was quite good too (and extremely decorative to boot).

And I loved the ending. Jenny getting so caught up in the wonder of what it is the Doctor does, and knowing that there's absolutely nothing for it but to do the same thing... it nicely encapsulated what the show's all about. I can't help but wonder if the Doctor's departure from Gallifrey in an old Type 40 TARDIS all those centuries ago must have played out similarly...

Solid Above Average. I really enjoyed it.

 

[Brendan Moody]

But who says The Doctor's daughter has to be involved with the war on Messaline? I'm talking about story potential in general. The Messaline storyline was built around The Doctor's daughter idea.

I'm not sure that last sentence is accurate- as with any story, I imagine it was more complicated than that.

Actually, the Confidential episode revealed that's exactly how it was. Stephen Greenhorn was given the title of the episode and was told to work from there.

I saw that part, and I think he was being at least a bit facetious. As RTD points out in the podcast, there was a lot more to the brief than that. Maybe at some early stage where every episode was a two-or-three word description that's all he had, but it's not like his only instruction from the production team during the writing was "the Doctor's daughter."

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Re: Doctor Who – 4x06 – The Doctor’s Daughter (Grade/Discuss)

First bummer this series and it's a doozy, the only good things in this one is that at first it seems like something interesting might happen, the Hath have an interesting design and Jenny is pretty cute (both physically and in personality).

However, it all comes around to a "two sides go at it in a small environment" show. The revelation of the seven day war doesn't really reveal much. I think they really needed to play up how small their environment was and slowly reveal that it was their whole world so there was some payoff. The disappointment really builds at the end as everything plays out as predictably as possible. The General's final action was so utterly cliche though I couldn't have possibly cared for it. At least it all was fairly lively though so the viewing wasn't as painful as it might have been.

Taking it back to the beginning the Doctor's Daughter mystery doesn't even last the teaser! "Everyone gets processed" but we don't see a Martha or Donna clone?

Freema's detractors usually talk about her acting skills but I think her loss of the Hath was played much better than Tennant's loss. I got none of the feeling compared to say Madame du Pompadour.

Finally, where's the Who humor and charm?

I bet the tie-in authors are already salivating with the possiblility of writing for Jenny Who.

 

[Candlelight]

Please, tell me nobody actually, seriously believed that she would end up being his real daughter? I mean, come on.

In the course of the episode, no, but I had hoped they would address the fate of his real family.

Does the Doctor actually know what happened to them or just assume his family died in the Time War?

 

[Cutter John]

I'd like some sort of explaination as well. Otherwise he comes off as a bit of a bastard for all those return trips to Gallifrey over the years without a visit home.

 

[Brent]

WOW! That had to be one of the most awesome endings ever!!!! Wow, I am like smiling wide and giggling outload in my chair after that ending! I had such a warm feeling after that, she is alive and gonna go out there just like The Doctor! This means we will see more of her in the future hopefully, yayayay!

Yep, this episode was very very good, so far this is one of the better seasons, very strong episodes. I loved this one, it felt like Classic Who in many ways.

I think some of you are on crack, I give this thing a "Fantastic!" !!!!!!!