Do you think paranormal activity (that can't be explained by science) still goes on in Star Trek?

[Gingerbread Demon]

And then you go down the road of some authors who write that magic is yet another form of science that we have just forgotten about so that's why real magic doesn't exist in commonplace. I'm not averse to the idea but many people don't like it and I think for good reason.

 

[Christopher]

And then you go down the road of some authors who write that magic is yet another form of science that we have just forgotten about so that's why real magic doesn't exist in commonplace. I'm not averse to the idea but many people don't like it and I think for good reason.

Yeah, I don't like that "Magic exists in our world but we've forgotten it" device. I find it disingenuous when fiction makes its fanciful elements some huge dark secret so they can pretend it's all happening behind the scenes in the real world. I mean, we all know it's not the real world, so why pretend? And keeping it all secret means it has no consequences, no impact on the world, and that's artificially limiting from a story standpoint. Fiction where the fantastic elements are out in the open and able to transform society is so much richer and more interesting than fiction where it's all artificially hidden. (For instance, X-Men Evolution was a gorgeously animated but boring show in its first two seasons when mutants' existence was hidden from the world, but became enormously more compelling after mutants were outed.)

And again, in a universe where magic existed, it wouldn't be something separate from ordinary physics, it would be intimately and fundamentally interwoven with them, just like the classical physics we thought we knew turned out to be special-case solutions of relativistic physics or macroscopic averages of quantum physics. Whatever forces magic was based on would be present throughout the universe and would have effects that would be measurable by scientists; they'd know there was something missing in their equations and they'd track it down and identify it. You can't hide from science forever.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't mind it being hidden. It depends on the story.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Yeah, I don't like that "Magic exists in our world but we've forgotten it" device. I find it disingenuous when fiction makes its fanciful elements some huge dark secret so they can pretend it's all happening behind the scenes in the real world. I mean, we all know it's not the real world, so why pretend? And keeping it all secret means it has no consequences, no impact on the world, and that's artificially limiting from a story standpoint. Fiction where the fantastic elements are out in the open and able to transform society is so much richer and more interesting than fiction where it's all artificially hidden. (For instance, X-Men Evolution was a gorgeously animated but boring show in its first two seasons when mutants' existence was hidden from the world, but became enormously more compelling after mutants were outed.)

And again, in a universe where magic existed, it wouldn't be something separate from ordinary physics, it would be intimately and fundamentally interwoven with them, just like the classical physics we thought we knew turned out to be special-case solutions of relativistic physics or macroscopic averages of quantum physics. Whatever forces magic was based on would be present throughout the universe and would have effects that would be measurable by scientists; they'd know there was something missing in their equations and they'd track it down and identify it. You can't hide from science forever.

But a lot of writing ant TV shows persists with that, Harry Potter, The Magicians, couldn't get past season 1 of the TV show and found it dreadful. I'm trying to convince meyself to start season 2. Both have that trope of magic is real but kept away from the outside world.

 

[Christopher]

But a lot of writing ant TV shows persists with that, Harry Potter, The Magicians, couldn't get past season 1 of the TV show and found it dreadful. I'm trying to convince meyself to start season 2. Both have that trope of magic is real but kept away from the outside world.

Oh, I can enjoy fiction that uses the trope; it's just not a favorite trope of mine.

As for The Magicians, I wasn't too fond of its first couple of episodes and walked away, but then I heard good things about it, gave it another chance, and was hooked. It's darker and cruder than I prefer, but often quite brilliant, powerful, and hilarious.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Oh, I can enjoy fiction that uses the trope; it's just not a favorite trope of mine.

As for The Magicians, I wasn't too fond of its first couple of episodes and walked away, but then I heard good things about it, gave it another chance, and was hooked. It's darker and cruder than I prefer, but often quite brilliant, powerful, and hilarious.

+1 on the cruder.... But I am going to try and stick with it since I was given it as a box set..

 

[Sci]

Well some characters in Star Trek, including Jean-Luc Picard himself do express personal believes that there must be more to life/existence/the universe than we can see and measure.

I just want to point out that there's a fundamental difference between believing in divinity, and believing in ghosts or vampires or whatever. Divinity is a non-falsifiable concept, and therefore is a non-empirical concept; it is outside of the ability of the scientific method to address, anymore than the scientific method can prove the existence of "love" or "purpose." As Karen Armstrong in A History of God notes, some of the most important religious leaders in the world, if you ask them privately, will simultaneously tell you that of course God is not "real" and yet is simultaneously the most important thing in the world. The concept of divinity is just not a concept that lends itself to empirical evaluation. (Hell, even in the world of Star Trek, science can only verify that, say, the Prophets exist; it cannot verify if the Prophets are divine beings worthy of worship.)

Ghosts/vampires/werewolves, on the other hand, are clearly a falsifiable alleged phenomenon: they are entities that supposedly empirically exist in this universe. And there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they do. Though there is evidence of an empirical phenomenon that may be inducing altered states of consciousness that causes people to falsely believe they have encountered ghosts or other supernatural entities.

And with all the weird stuff they encounter there's probably quite a bit they can't fully explain and that might seem "haunted".

More likely that every single allegedly haunted location is either a location in which the physical properties of the area cause humanoid brains to be manipulated into falsely believing they have encountered something that they interpret through the lens of their culture as a supernatural entity, or that those areas are actually being haunted by an entity that comports with the laws of physics but is unusual on M-class planets (such as an energy being like the Metrons or Trelane or the Pagh-Wraiths, or an extra-dimensional entity like Q).

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I like the concept Dr Who had that ghosts could be time / space disturbances or people that exist but out of phase with current time so they appear as ghosts

 

[Vger23]

Probably not

 

[CorporalCaptain]

TAS "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" gets pretty far into the paranormal, being set in another universe where magic is real. By the location where the Enterprise entered it, that universe would seem to be involved in part of the process of creation.

As mentioned, telepathy, telekinesis, and ESP are fairly paranormal-esque, and the handling of those goes back to the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

I agree that the way Star Trek handles anything seemingly magical or paranormal, the implication is always that, given enough time, Federation science will be able to describe it and do so scientifically.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

TAS "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" gets pretty far into the paranormal, being set in another universe where magic is real. By the location where the Enterprise entered it, that universe would seem to be involved in part of the process of creation.

As mentioned, telepathy, telekinesis, and ESP are fairly paranormal-esque, and the handling of those goes back to the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

I agree that the way Star Trek handles anything seemingly magical or paranormal, the implication is always that, given enough time, Federation science will be able to describe it and do so scientifically.

I agree with this too. I haven't watched TAS in a long, long time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

TAS "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" gets pretty far into the paranormal, being set in another universe where magic is real. By the location where the Enterprise entered it, that universe would seem to be involved in part of the process of creation.

As mentioned, telepathy, telekinesis, and ESP are fairly paranormal-esque, and the handling of those goes back to the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

I agree that the way Star Trek handles anything seemingly magical or paranormal, the implication is always that, given enough time, Federation science will be able to describe it and do so scientifically.

The best TAS episode.

 

[Christopher]

The "process of creation" element in "Megas-tu" comes from a discredited cosmological theory, not any paranormal or supernatural belief. The Big Bang theory, that the universe expanded from a single origin point a finite time ago, used to have competition in the Steady State theory, that new matter was constantly being created from white holes in the centers of galaxies, canceling out the observed expansion so that the universe's density remained constant and it could be presumed to have existed forever. Steady State was discredited by the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation in 1964, which confirmed many of the Big Bang model's predictions. But some theorists (mainly Fred Hoyle) clung religiously to Steady State, and apparently "Megas-tu"'s writer Larry Brody either took their side of the debate, didn't know it had been discredited, or just figured it made a more interesting story. In retrospect, though, it's like watching a story about the canals of Mars or the dinosaur-filled jungles of Venus. Especially since later Trek has frequently referenced the Big Bang as an undisputed fact (and even had a Q take Voyager back to witness it).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The "process of creation" element in "Megas-tu" comes from a discredited cosmological theory, not any paranormal or supernatural belief.

Yes. As I said, though, it's implied by the story's placement of the magic universe on the other side of the creation locus that there is some sort of connection between the magic universe and the process of creation, at least within the fictional universe. It's all but saying that creation seems to us as a magical event, which it does.

apparently "Megas-tu"'s writer Larry Brody either took their side of the debate, didn't know it had been discredited, or just figured it made a more interesting story. In retrospect, though, it's like watching a story about the canals of Mars or the dinosaur-filled jungles of Venus.

If you say so. We're talking about a cartoon spun off from a show whose second pilot states that there is scientific evidence for ESP. It's more like par for the course. I would have gone with the idea of it making a more interesting story.

The best TAS episode.

I wouldn't try to persuade anyone otherwise. It's certainly ambitious, having the guts to play the devil is an alien card.

 

[publiusr]

Guinan does

About that...

If something were truly paranormal...like a ghost, it would be “outside” even Q level powers.

Q could hurl a planet with a ghost on it into a black hole just fine. But the ghost itself might be “immune” to the direct power of any but perhaps the combined Q.

I think of Q not having a Mirror counterpart, being a true citizen of the Omniverse.

I just love the idea of layers to things.
Scientific thinking could still apply even to things “outside” science.

If I knew that I was about to be drained by AD&D wraiths, maybe a voodoo doll of me thrown into the Positve Energy Plane as I was attacked might offer a defense, even if a Q-made tricorder couldn’t detect either the plane or the wraith itself...

Edited

Speaking of Guinan...I have this idea of her as having repore with all her alternate selves, giving her a wide and stable stance. So her pose was not a bluff. She might have found a way to nullify Q, but not after being distracted and once Ent-D was flung away, she needed him.

Q is powerful, but only in the universe that extra-cosmic entity finds itself in, unlike Guinan perhaps

Trek allows FTL and other wonders, but let him travel to a dull universe like this one—-and it is perhaps a one way trip.

I have heard it said that our three dimensional world is the only one where knots stay tied.

I suppose that means our universe would make for a good prison plane...which sometimes gives me pause...

 

[Christopher]

If something were truly paranormal...like a ghost, it would be “outside” even Q level powers.

Why do you assume that? "Paranormal" just means "beyond normal," and "normal" is not all-encompassing; it merely refers to the usual and expected, by the standards of the definer. The Online Etymology Dictionary defines the word to refer to "observed events or things presumed to operate by natural laws but not conforming to those known or normal" (emphasis added). The earliest known uses of the word in the early 20th century (see the comments here) were in journals of "psychical science" by people who considered themselves serious investigators of a phenomenon that was not understood but that they believed would be amenable to scientific explanation in time. So there's nothing in the word that implies anything beyond all science and physics, merely what's currently understood or commonplace.

Thus, by human standards, all Q abilities would count as "paranormal," and could easily encompass control of things beyond human understanding, such as what we'd consider "ghosts." And arguably such things do exist in the Trek universe, e.g. disembodied consciousnesses or incorporeal intelligences. The evil pinwheel entity in "Day of the Dove" was essentially a malicious spirit haunting the Enterprise, as was the energy creature in "Beyond the Farthest Star."

I just love the idea of layers to things.
Scientific thinking could still apply even to things “outside” science.

See, this is what laypeople don't get about science, and it's frustrating. Scientific thinking is supposed to apply to things outside of science. That is literally the entire purpose of science -- to study things we don't already understand. The whole blessed point of the exercise is to grow, to expand, to encompass new things.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Why do you assume that? "Paranormal" just means "beyond normal," and "normal" is not all-encompassing; it merely refers to the usual and expected, by the standards of the definer. The Online Etymology Dictionary defines the word to refer to "observed events or things presumed to operate by natural laws but not conforming to those known or normal" (emphasis added). The earliest known uses of the word in the early 20th century (see the comments here) were in journals of "psychical science" by people who considered themselves serious investigators of a phenomenon that was not understood but that they believed would be amenable to scientific explanation in time. So there's nothing in the word that implies anything beyond all science and physics, merely what's currently understood or commonplace.

Thus, by human standards, all Q abilities would count as "paranormal," and could easily encompass control of things beyond human understanding, such as what we'd consider "ghosts." And arguably such things do exist in the Trek universe, e.g. disembodied consciousnesses or incorporeal intelligences. The evil pinwheel entity in "Day of the Dove" was essentially a malicious spirit haunting the Enterprise, as was the energy creature in "Beyond the Farthest Star."




See, this is what laypeople don't get about science, and it's frustrating. Scientific thinking is supposed to apply to things outside of science. That is literally the entire purpose of science -- to study things we don't already understand. The whole blessed point of the exercise is to grow, to expand, to encompass new things.

Merriam-Webster defines paranormal as [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paranormal]:

not scientifically explainable : SUPERNATURAL​

Upthread you said:

Yeah, but that's new science to discover. When I said "What's left," what I meant was that everything we consider supernatural today has a "scientific" equivalent or explanation in the Trek future, so what's left that could still be considered supernatural? My whole point is that nothing would be supernatural, because it's all just new science.

So, yeah, depending on whose dictionary you look the word paranormal up in (and Merriam-Webster ain't chopped liver), what @publiusr said could be quite reasonable.

If something were truly paranormal...like a ghost, it would be “outside” even Q level powers.

 

[FormerLurker]

Thus, by human standards, all Q abilities would count as "paranormal," and could easily encompass control of things beyond human understanding, such as what we'd consider "ghosts." And arguably such things do exist in the Trek universe, e.g. disembodied consciousnesses or incorporeal intelligences. The evil pinwheel entity in "Day of the Dove" was essentially a malicious spirit haunting the Enterprise, as was the energy creature in "Beyond the Farthest Star."

As far as this goes, the Lights of Zetar are by definition ghosts, as they are the collective disembodied spirits of the Zetarian people. Understanding how they were able to project themselves into the cosmos the way they did is an exercise as ambitious, if not more so, as understanding how the Vulcans or the Arretans (Sargon, etc) are able to transplant their consciousnesses into the spheres for storage, and future communication.

 

[publiusr]

Christopher’s viewpoint is how you want to end an adventure. I had no problem with midichlorians myself, as a Force phlogiston, though others wanted to keep it all mystical.

I like the storytelling of a powerful but explainable mental being having its plans thwarted by something small but unexplainable.

Once I read a comic book where an ordinary businessman was abducted by aliens. They did all manner of psychological torture, even revealing their own horrific true forms.

Nothing worked.

They abandoned all plans of invasion, seeing Earthlings as too much trouble—so, they turned him lose.

The figure then went about his business, walked back into a clearing...


and got back into his coffin

Heaven for climate...Hell for conversation

 

[Christopher]

Christopher’s viewpoint is how you want to end an adventure.

Huh? No, my viewpoint is that I'm sick of the insulting mischaracterization of science as something self-limiting that blinds itself to new ideas, as in countless stories where scientists are portrayed as closed-minded fools who deny clear evidence of the paranormal. The entire job of science is to follow the evidence and expand to encompass new ideas.

Again, there was a time in the 19th-20th centuries when reputable scientists strove to investigate the paranormal, to seek a scientific explanation for allegations of ghosts and psychic powers and so forth. They were open to being convinced. After all, they'd expanded their knowledge to encompass so many other previously obscure things about the universe, so why not this as well? If there had been anything there to find, they would have found it. Instead, all they found was fraud and superstition. They didn't close their minds; they opened their minds to the possibilities, and the subject matter let them down, because there wasn't really anything there. So it follows that in a fictional universe where there really was something there, they would've found it and built a science around it.

I had no problem with midichlorians myself, as a Force phlogiston, though others wanted to keep it all mystical.

I thought they were the cleverest idea Lucas ever had -- a spiritual analogy to mitochondria. Just as mitochondria are a symbiotic life form that provide the metabolic energy of (nearly) all living cells, so midi-chlorians are a symbiotic life form that connect all living things to the Force. It's elegant and rather beautiful. The problem is that too many viewers don't know enough about biology to understand the analogy (I've seen people mistake it for some kind of outside infection rather than an integral part of every cell from conception onward), and don't know enough about the Eastern philosophy Lucas was invoking to appreciate the idea of the physical and spiritual being one and the same. (I mean, really, the whole point of the Force is that it exists within and connects all living things, so what's wrong with it having an intimate connection to biology?)

I like the storytelling of a powerful but explainable mental being having its plans thwarted by something small but unexplainable.

Once I read a comic book where an ordinary businessman was abducted by aliens. They did all manner of psychological torture, even revealing their own horrific true forms.

Nothing worked.

They abandoned all plans of invasion, seeing Earthlings as too much trouble—so, they turned him lose.

The figure then went about his business, walked back into a clearing...


and got back into his coffin

Heaven for climate...Hell for conversation

But that was only unexplainable to the aliens, not to the reader. There was an explanation at the end. "Unexplainable" is a meaningless word when used as an absolute. You can't prove a negative. The most you can say is that something hasn't been explained yet, or that its explanation is unknown to a particular group. It's impossible to prove, and reckless to assume, that it can never be explained by anyone.