Do you think LGBT characters will feature more prominently?

[Takeru]

Also the gay stereotypes from the Flash/Arrow-verse. They are all married and presumably monogamous and copy the lifestyle of the 1950s.

So showing gay people in a loving, committed relationship is not good?

There is also this sissy character from Black Orphan, which felt very much as if he came directly from the 1930s. He's interested in whoring around and art.

And being single and "whoring around" isn't good either? Then how should gay people be portrayed? And why is enjoying sex with different partners a bad thing.
I also think it's a bit offensive to refer to him as a sissy character just because he doesn't fit gender norms or gow you think a gay man should behave.

Here are dramas that currently feature LGBT characters, while not all characters are prominent in their shows there are a lot of good portrayals of gay characters in that list.

 

[Guy Gardener]

HA! I thought that we were actually talking about a character called Sissy.

Felix's straight guy act (when he seduced the beautician clone) was interesting.

 

[ihno]

@Takeru: I guess that depends what you have in mind.
I want something authentic and Flash etc. is a bit cheesy and too obviously written for a straight audience.

Then how should gay people be portrayed?

I liked Willow in Buffy, that was authentic. And I liked the original British Queer as folk, not the US remake. [and that British version had lots of casual sex and "sissies", that answers your questions concering to those. But it was authentic.]

But other than that I don't watch US american or british TV shows if I want to see good gay characters. I watch independent gay movies of which there are quite a lot.

And why is enjoying sex with different partners a bad thing.
I also think it's a bit offensive to refer to him as a sissy character just because he doesn't fit gender norms or gow you think a gay man should behave.

Why don't you watch this documentary?

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The sissy:

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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112651/?ref_=nv_sr_1

And of course the Black orphan gay guy is a gay sissy clichee. The only difference to the 1930s is that you're not supposed to laugh but to take the character seriously.

edit: But to be fair, straight couples aren't much better most of the times.

 

[borgboy]

I think Pied Piper on Flash is pretty complex and interesting.
I'm a big fan of the UK drama Hollyoaks. It's really refreshing to see how their gay characters - they have five gay guys, two lesbians, a bi female and a trans woman played by a trans actress - are diverse, complex, and featured the same way the straight characters are. There's an HIV+ drug addict, a prim school mistress, a shady lawyer dealing with being bullied and abused by his father, a nice guy single father, etc. They have love scenes just as explicit as the straights, their storylines are given equal prominence. It makes you realize how shoddy the gays get it in American tv by comparison, although things are somewhat improving here.

 

[ihno]

I think Pied Piper on Flash is pretty complex and interesting.

I had to google him and I agree, I'd love to see him again.
And I must admit that all the Flash characters are cheesy.
edit: But I guess I forgot about Alex from Supergirl, her coming out gives her character finally something to do and some depth.

I'm a big fan of the UK drama Hollyoaks. It's really refreshing to see how their gay characters - they have five gay guys, two lesbians, a bi female and a trans woman played by a trans actress - are diverse, complex, and featured the same way the straight characters are. There's an HIV+ drug addict, a prim school mistress, a shady lawyer dealing with being bullied and abused by his father, a nice guy single father, etc. They have love scenes just as explicit as the straights, their storylines are given equal prominence. It makes you realize how shoddy the gays get it in American tv by comparison, although things are somewhat improving here.

Oh, I have never heard of that. I don't read too much of your explainations to avoid spoilers but I will give it a try.
I see it's on Channel 4 - just like Queer as folk. I have some trust in them. Most of the stuff I find akward (like the transsexual horse) comes from the BBC.

 

[borgboy]

There are tons of edits of the older gay storylines on YouTube.
Craig and John Paul were a teen couple on the downlow - John Paul was out and madly in love with Craig who had a girlfriend and wouldn't admit to being gay or even bi at first but kept sleeping with JP.

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Brendan and Ste are arguably the show's most popular couple. They started out both closeted with Ste working for Brendan at the local nightclub. Ste is a young single father with a troubled past, Brendan is a ruthless two bit mobster with a violent temper and dodgy morals.

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[Tenacity]

So showing gay people in a loving, committed relationship is not good?

It doesn't have to be the automatic default position.

And being single and "whoring around" isn't good either?

Might be too far in the other direction, you can have a character who is sexually active, without depicting them as a "whore." A gay character who is out -of-control promiscuous isn't what I want to see.

I also think it's a bit offensive to refer to him as a sissy character

Some people (men and women) are sissies, the term can be use descriptively.

 

[ihno]

It doesn't have to be the automatic default position.

I watched the 4 part crossover of Supergirl etc. yesterday and I found that they do it quite well with the lesbians.

Not so much with the gays so far (except the cute crazy rich guy Borgboy mentioned ). It's sometimes like watching Teletubbies or the Waltons or some political gay movie from the 90s (with the visit-rights in hospitals).

I don't find myself in that happy bubble, esp. since they are all model-twinks between 22 and 28 years old.

Might be too far in the other direction, you can have a character who is sexually active, without depicting them as a "whore." A gay character who is out -of-control promiscuous isn't what I want to see.

Since I came up with it I was using a strong choice of words to underline how stale and dated that stereotype (from Black orphan) is.
Personally I don't have a problem with people who enjoy causal sex.

.Some people (men and women) are sissies, the term can be use descriptively.

Yes, I agree. Gay men do that all the time most often with some kind of irony.

"Sissy" is also the term for the flamboyant effeminate movie stereotype, that's why I used it.
And we talk about TV here. It was still quite the standard 10 years ago, that gay men could be easily be identified just by the way the actors hold their hands.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's not a great word.

Effeminate would have worked just as well, without conjuring up some schoolyard bullying scenario, where a thug is half drowning another boy in a toilet.

 

[ihno]

So quoting from "The celluloid closet" or using terms from that documentary is not desired in this forum?

 

[Guy Gardener]

You can be right, or you can be happy.

'Can't be both.

Dude!

That movie is 21 years old.

It doesn't "completely" reflect the modern world.

 

[ihno]

You can be right, or you can be happy.

'Can't be both.

Dude!

That movie is 21 years old.

It doesn't "completely" reflect the modern world.

Thanks for the lecture.
It doesn't want to reflect the modern world because it's a documentary (not a "movie") and as for that it's still valid mostly.

And yes, 20 years ago. I'm out and proud since 1990.
Some things don't change - like people (mostly straight people) approaching me and telling me how I should deal with my sexual identitiy, how I should talk and what words I should not use.

I don't have a problem with sissiness or "effiminate" people. Maybe those, who feel offended by it, have a problem? To me it's part of gay culture and identity since the times of Magnus Hirschfeld's studies of Berlin of the 1920s.

I already told the story once. When I wore drag 20 years ago for gay pride straight men apporached me and told me not to wear drag because it would put gay people into a bad light.

Wearing drag nowerdays is different. Today straight women apporach me and tell I should not wear drag because it discriminates transsexuals.

What a brave new world.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/07/20/pride-event-bans-drag-queens-in-case-they-are-offensive/

If anyone here thinks that the dated cliche Black orphan sissy does actually help small town boys with their coming out probabaly should think about it twice. It does not.

21 years ago my friend was bullied into suicide in a small catholic village and I couldn't prevent it. Be assured that I have those things in mind when I use words that don't fit into the current US-american LGBT-Correctness.

 

[jmidnight_99]

What the heck does this thread have to do with star trek?

A few years ago a member of a friend's family had "gender reassignment surgery". At some gathering I asked her how she could be so sure what she was doing was right. She explained to me that she had felt out of place in her body for as long as she could remember, and every fiber in her being was driving her to correct it. She was so much happier now. "How can you be happier no longer being you?" "Now I finally am me"

At first, I wondered how going through all that surgery and hormone injections and everything she lost (divorce, etc) could possibly be worth it. I couldn't understand it. Why not just get over it, and go on with your life? After some thought, I realized that sexuality, gender, and all the words i can't think of right now are strong internal instincts... or forces, and perhaps they are the strongest. I can only imagine the profound stress a person goes through when something like a gender issue exists. Its no surprise that she went through such great extents to correct it.

At the same time, it dawned on me why people "oppose" or negatively judge, or react negatively, or whatever you want to call it. What drove her to correct it, is the same thing that drives the non-afflicted to reject it. How enlightening.

Now here's the million dollar question: Which "side" should be forced to suppress their natural drive, instincts, and tendencies, and endure the resulting stress? Should anyone be forced to do that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Please don't reply if this is you, thanks.

 

[Jinn]

What the heck does this thread have to do with star trek?

I think it started out discussing lgbt characters in recent and upcoming Trek. Then everything went a bit off topic.

Now here's the million dollar question: Which "side" should be forced to suppress their natural drive, instincts, and tendencies, and endure the resulting stress? Should anyone be forced to do that?

So basically the choice between being intolerant towards intolerant people or being intolerant towards people who don't have a choice in what they are doing and are being met with intolerance for that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

ihno, you keep getting it backwards again and again.

This is Orphan Black.

This is Black Orphan.

 

[Kemaiku]

Now here's the million dollar question: Which "side" should be forced to suppress their natural drive, instincts, and tendencies, and endure the resulting stress?.

Being non cis-gendered is natural, and when allowed to be expressed, allows the person to get on with their lives without anyone being harmed in any way.

Being a bigot, denying someone their rights, fostering an attitude that encourages others to harrass them to death, rape them or kill them, is certainly harming someone.

This year has been the worst on record for the number of non-cisgendered individuals being hospitalised, raped, killed or laws being passed specifically to limit their ability to simply live their lives.

There's really no equivalence there.

 

[TheSubCommander]

There's needs to be more than one gay guy on the ship. This is too little too late.

Well, with the size of Discovery being slightly bigger than a Constitution class, there probably is. And who knows, maybe there will be minor characters who are LGBT featured from time to time.

But in a cast that, if they follow the model of previous shows will likely be centered on 8-10 main characters, with one confirmed as gay (and I am assuming a partner will be featured, so maybe 2 of the 10-ish?), would that be enough? Personally I think so. That would be more than representative of the population. And on a ship that large, I am sure there is room for other minor characters, as well as guest stars. So I think that is about the right amount: one major character who is gay, and their partner. And if the writers wanted to explore other LGBT issues (as in the LBT, since they have the G covered), there is room enough to do that.

 

[Tenacity]

So showing gay people in a loving, committed relationship is not good?

And being single and "whoring around" isn't good either?

Pehaps a compromise, a married gay couple who constantly whore around behind each others backs?

Yeah, that will bring the gay community onboard.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Pehaps a compromise, a married gay couple who constantly whore around behind each others backs?

Yeah, that will bring the gay community onboard.

You have to make the majority feel better about themselves by making everyone else appear worse, otherwise they can't wrap their heads around how everyone is just like them.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Why not just have gay couples like it was revealed with Sulu in the Kelvinverse? Or the case in DS9's "Rejoined"? There was no "OMG TEH GAY!" It just was. And if you assume that by the 22nd-24th centuries, the fight is long over, then that's how it should be. No fanfare, it just is. Exchange between male commander and female captain might go as follows...
MC: Sir, how's your wife?
FC: Oh, she's fine. She's excited about our anniversary and she won't say what she's gotten the chef to do.