• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Do you think "Discovery" will take more chances than "DS9." did?

Well, to be fair to Picard, Klingon laws are totally stupid... :D

Considering the current political climate in my country, I honestly think they've got a better system right now :p

Joking aside, it always bugged me. The enlightened and accepting Federation having a Klingon Starfleet officer - and yet that offier abiding by Klingon laws and doing what his culture demands is deemed a disappointment because it didn't fit with human standards.

DS9 did something similar, but they handled it a little better; no moral lecture or judgment from the lead, but anger and frustration which is more emotive and not patronising (also backed up by 'local laws').
 
I based my statement on comments Ira Behr has made, in that he was glad to have done DS9 in a pre-9/11 world because many stuff, most notably Kira being a "heroic terrorist" would not be tolerated in the post 9/11 world.

Well, honestly in his place I would have said the same thing. I think Ronald D. Moore took a huge risk, and I think part of the reason it did not blow up in his face was because BSG was a fringe show, on a fringe network.
 
Well, honestly in his place I would have said the same thing. I think Ronald D. Moore took a huge risk, and I think part of the reason it did not blow up in his face was because BSG was a fringe show, on a fringe network.

To be honest, I think it paid off because no one else was doing what they did rather than where it was broadcast.
 
If a gay couple on Trek was a ratings grab, we'd have, well, had a gay couple on Trek.

It was a blatant ratings grab not because it was a gay couple, but because it was a lesbian kiss, because, hey, what 'Murkan male doesn't like watching lesbians?
 
Terrorism was an issue in the 90s, even if it was no where on the scale it is today it was, imo, a risk for DS9 to take. Of course not nearly as risky as Battlestar Galactica having the Colonials using suicide bombers against the Cylons, and perceived collaborators in a post 911 world.
The colonials using suicide bombers against the Cylons was not only controversial (even more so now, when it could easily be interpreted as sympathy for the methods of IS), it was a stupid thing to do in-universe.

Earlier in the show, at least one Cylon had done a suicide bombing in a way that made sense: he was probably about to be find out as a Cylon infiltrator and spaced, and by killing himself he would be resurrected anyway so he could as well go out by doing some damage. His position on Galactica (or on the wider fleet) was no longer tenable.

With the remaining colonists however, we see Roslin keeping a scoreboard, recording every death and the odd birth. On New Caprica, suddenly a fair number of colonist don't think that survival of the human race is important anymore and they reduce themselves to being a delivery mechanism for a bomb. And all this to hurt Cylons who are reborn a few hours or days later, while also simultaneously convincing most Cylons that extermination was the right idea after all.

This is all the more surprising considering that the occupation seem to have been the thing they objected so much about, when earlier those people somehow avoided suicide in the totally desperate situation they were in (with them even being chased through jump after jump, early on in the show). When admiral Cain used Pegasus - and the few civilian ships she came across - in what were essentially suicidal attacks, the show seemed to convict her for this. Curious that the total destruction of the colonies (and the death of what, billions?) was no excuse to do what Cain did, but the rough living conditions on New Caprica totally justified suicide bombing.

My impression is that Ron Moore had lost his interest in BSG at that point, and he really wanted to do a story about Iraq so he - inappropriately - pushed Iraq into BSG.
 
The suicide bombers were Tigh - a military - decision. Have you ever seen The Great Escape? That lays out exactly what they were doing in BSG.
 
The colonials using suicide bombers against the Cylons was not only controversial (even more so now, when it could easily be interpreted as sympathy for the methods of IS), it was a stupid thing to do in-universe.

Earlier in the show, at least one Cylon had done a suicide bombing in a way that made sense: he was probably about to be find out as a Cylon infiltrator and spaced, and by killing himself he would be resurrected anyway so he could as well go out by doing some damage. His position on Galactica (or on the wider fleet) was no longer tenable.

With the remaining colonists however, we see Roslin keeping a scoreboard, recording every death and the odd birth. On New Caprica, suddenly a fair number of colonist don't think that survival of the human race is important anymore and they reduce themselves to being a delivery mechanism for a bomb. And all this to hurt Cylons who are reborn a few hours or days later, while also simultaneously convincing most Cylons that extermination was the right idea after all.

This is all the more surprising considering that the occupation seem to have been the thing they objected so much about, when earlier those people somehow avoided suicide in the totally desperate situation they were in (with them even being chased through jump after jump, early on in the show). When admiral Cain used Pegasus - and the few civilian ships she came across - in what were essentially suicidal attacks, the show seemed to convict her for this. Curious that the total destruction of the colonies (and the death of what, billions?) was no excuse to do what Cain did, but the rough living conditions on New Caprica totally justified suicide bombing.

My impression is that Ron Moore had lost his interest in BSG at that point, and he really wanted to do a story about Iraq so he - inappropriately - pushed Iraq into BSG.
I disagree about Moore's position. As much as I didn't like the presentation, I read enough articles (magazine and otherwise) to understand that he was not trying to excuse the actions, but just present them as topics for general conversation, which sci-fi often does, and the fact that its considered inappropriate means its exactly the type of topic that needs to be brought up.
 
New Caprica, suddenly a fair number of colonist don't think that survival of the human race is important anymore and they reduce themselves to being a delivery mechanism for a bomb. And all this to hurt Cylons who are reborn a few hours or days later,
Actually the suicide bombing on New Caprica was used against the police force the Cylons established consisting of humans loyal to them. Basically, Tigh sent a message that any human now working for the Cylons is considered an enemy of humanity.
When admiral Cain used Pegasus - and the few civilian ships she came across - in what were essentially suicidal attacks, the show seemed to convict her for this.
What are you even talking about? Cain did not use civilian ships in suicide attacks. She stripped the civilian ships of any useful equipment, material, and components and abandoned them. She drafted anyone on them with skills needed as crew replacements on Pegasus. There were those who objected because they didn't want to abandon their families, so she ordered those families executed.

Cain certainly never used the Pegasus itself in a suicide attack. In fact, that was Lee Adama who did that liberating New Caprica.
My impression is that Ron Moore had lost his interest in BSG at that point,
It's clear you lost interest in the show, as you're not even remembering it correctly at all.
 
I've been looking at this show sideways every since they announced the idea. I've never really been sure about it. Skeptical is more like it.

On the one hand, looking at parts of the trailer, the look of the show and the time setting, I see just traces of the old style which got an "uh oh" from me. It had that same Enterprise look.

Now, after looking press releases, the pictures, the style, I have a feeling Discovery is going to take chances. It's just a feeling at this point, from the looks of it.


Thank god DS9 took all those chances, whatever chances it did take. It could have been as typical as the other shows in the series, but it branched off a bit and gave us something different to watch.

It could have followed that route and been set on another starship, same villains, same music, rules, habits as the previous series, but what would people be re-watching now? Yay DS9! lol.
 
It was a blatant ratings grab not because it was a gay couple, but because it was a lesbian kiss, because, hey, what 'Murkan male doesn't like watching lesbians?
If the audience really wanted to see lesbians, and having lesbians would have increased ratings, the show would have consistently had lesbians.
 
I don't buy into the idea that the Jadzia/Lenara kiss was done for ratings. I think it was done to push the envelope in way they felt like they could do it. Not all that different from the motives that went into the Kirk/Uhura kiss back in the 60's.

I know we can argue that they cut corners by having it be between aliens much like you can say the kiss between Kirk/Uhura is diminished by having aliens forcing them to do it but I still think a little progress was better than zero progress.

Jason
 
Considering the only "chance" DS9 took, IIRC, was to have some female-on-female kissy face and lesbian Mirror-Kira, I'd say DSC already has them beat with having a gay male main character.

Let's see how the character is played out and what he does. I don't judge people by personality attributes, or books by how pretty the covers look. Well, for that last one I stopped doing that at around age 19 or so and started reading them, often to find that the cover was hiding more ugliness. But books are sold by what they look like upfront, just like prostitutes except most books are legal. :D
 
I don't buy into the idea that the Jadzia/Lenara kiss was done for ratings. I think it was done to push the envelope in way they felt like they could do it. Not all that different from the motives that went into the Kirk/Uhura kiss back in the 60's.

I know we can argue that they cut corners by having it be between aliens much like you can say the kiss between Kirk/Uhura is diminished by having aliens forcing them to do it but I still think a little progress was better than zero progress.

Jason

Kirk/Uhura were mentally coerced by the Platonians, which is tantamount to both of them being raped by proxy.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Kirk spells it out, it's about power. Which is what rape is about, forcing power unto another, in this case as an unwanted corporeal physical act.

But there was also an "interracial" kiss prior to TOS (we're all part of the human race so there's no problem either way) that clearly had no form of implied force or rape involved...

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...beat-kirk-and-uhara-to-first-interracial-kiss

CNN may have lost credibility in recent days, but in 2015 they were still reasonably accurate:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/world/first-interracial-kiss-on-tv/index.html
(OMG, the clip even show the lips locked - unlike Kirk's moment! 1962 was a lot more daring but I doubt TV writers in the US and UK compared notes, unless it was to take a UK series and retool it for the US like what became "All in the Family" in the US...)

The contextual difference speaks for itself, in many cases.

Of course, are we talking "history of TV" or just "American TV"... (not unlike Gagarin, the first man in space but he doesn't count because he wasn't American??! Or how the UK abolished slavery before America had or got universal healthcare or the lists that go on and on and on...)
 
Kirk/Uhura were mentally coerced by the Platonians, which is tantamount to both of them being raped by proxy.
Well they weren't raped, but you're right that they built in a 'get out clause'. DS9 did the same - although it's two women kissing, their feelings are due to a nice safe, straight, past relationship. Even The Outcast which I actually think does hold up reasonably well as an allegory of sexual/gender prejudice, made it very clear that the relationship in the story was male/female.
 
I enjoyed DS9 well enough, but I found it to be the same "safe" Trek that didn't stray too far from the formula. Babylon 5, despite it's somewhat lower quality CG FX grabbed my attention and I found it to be bolder than Trek was at that time. So I don't think it'll take much for Discovery to be bolder than it.
 
I enjoyed DS9 well enough, but I found it to be the same "safe" Trek that didn't stray too far from the formula. Babylon 5, despite it's somewhat lower quality CG FX grabbed my attention and I found it to be bolder than Trek was at that time.

When I think of DS9 I think Ron Moore was right when I think he once said that "They tried to bend the rules of Trek but not break them." I think that is good way at looking at the show.

As for Babylon 5 I also think it's more bold but i'm not sure if it's much better. I think each show did a few things better than the other which helped equal things out between them.

In that time period I think you can only make a case that X'Files,Buffy, Angel and Farscape were better. Then you got stuff that is more equal like Stargate,Xena,Babylon 5,Space Above and Beyond and then stuff that was okay but not as good in Brimstone,Voyager,Hercules,Sliders,Cleopatrica 2025(I think that was the title),Earth 2,7 Days and then stuff that sucked like Seaquest,Homeboys in outer Space, VR-5.

Jason
 
DS9 had Ira Steven Behr. He pushed there and where as best he could, it would seem.

Everyone used to harp the old B&B mantra with the downfall of TV Trek, but who were their bosses? Same as now?

Berman just did his job. *roll eyes*... What fucks me right off is that Bryan Fuller ( attached to a show American Gods which has become my new favourite program -- along with another [see avatar] ) left! A Star Trek fan handed the keys to the kingdom and then buggers off? Creative differences, pure and simple.

They'll push it comparative to what they've done, perhaps. But not to what the current market has adjusted to. I have no doubt it's going to ooze money, visually. Moonves is still at the head, but has he adapted? He hates Trek from accounts. I watched the trailers again and just thought -- pedestrian.

Bit of a rant.
 
DS9 had Ira Steven Behr. He pushed there and where as best he could, it would seem.

Everyone used to harp the old B&B mantra with the downfall of TV Trek, but who were their bosses? Same as now?

Berman just did his job. *roll eyes*... What fucks me right off is that Bryan Fuller ( attached to a show American Gods which has become my new favourite program -- along with another [see avatar] ) left! A Star Trek fan handed the keys to the kingdom and then buggers off? Creative differences, pure and simple.

They'll push it comparative to what they've done, perhaps. But not to what the current market has adjusted to. I have no doubt it's going to ooze money, visually. Moonves is still at the head, but has he adapted? He hates Trek from accounts. I watched the trailers again and just thought -- pedestrian.

Bit of a rant.
It's a business too, and that's how Moonves will treat it.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top