Do you support Arizona?

[cyph]

Oh, immigration, what an issue to look at from so many different lenses.

While I do agree that laws are meant to be enforced, I can not get behind this one. Really its because enforcing sb1070 and reasonable suspicion, though outlined, is still a gray area. I don't want to talk about how racism is practically institutionalized into our society already, or sb1070 and its own implications on creating more visible divisions, but rather question immigration reform - outside of forcing everybody to carry i.d. and papers, what else can be done? It's only a problem if you have a solution to it, and I think sb1070 is certainly not the best approach to tackling the issue.

On the off chance that I'd be cruising around Flagstaff one day without my wallet and I'm riding shotgun with my girl and she gets pulled over, and here I am wearing my Team Philippines tshirt and I get my i.d. asked for, what do I do? (btw, I'm a citzen)

As for racial profiling, it already does exist. If Oscar Grant were alive, I'd tell you to go ask him about it. Should legal immigrants and naturalized citizens get detained for not having their papers on them and get picked up for racial profiling, SB1070 is their free ticket. In a perfect world, with perfect police officers and perfect citizens, sb1070 wouldn't be so bad; it'd be a pain the ass, but it wouldn't be so bad. But we all know that's not the case. There surely will be a handful of straight cops that will do their best to be fair in their enforcement, but like most field statistics show, you'll have your outliers that will misuse and abuse.

 

[Pingfah]

Good luck identifying your mangled body at the bottom of a ditch after a car hits you if you aren't carrying ID...

I think i'll need more than luck

 

[RJDiogenes]

I'm just pointing out the approval rate among legal Hispanics here in Arizona because I would think that would be the first group that would be up in arms if this law really did legalize racial profiling like the antagonists are asserting.

It's not really too surprising. Anybody who accomplishes something honestly should resent those who get there by cheating.

 

[FrontLine]

On the off chance that I'd be cruising around Flagstaff one day without my wallet and I'm riding shotgun with my girl and she gets pulled over, and here I am wearing my Team Philippines tshirt and I get my i.d. asked for, what do I do? (btw, I'm a citzen)

Obey the instructions of the officer / deputy and produce your ID. Long before this law was passed, the SCOTUS said that you must provide your drivers license to an LEO upon request during an investigation (and a traffic stop counts as an investigation). So the question is really a non sequitor.

 

[Danoz]

No. These kind of policies encourage racial discrimination and the only "reasonable suspicion" could be based on ethnicity. You risk turning American citizens into second class citizens with policies like this. If you really want to crack down on illegal immigration you need to stop with the hypocritical policies that encourage it to begin with.

I'm not going to disagree with you on the last sentence, as you're spot on.

However, to say that the only "reasonable suspicion" is based on ethnicity belies a serious lack of imagination or unfamiliarity with the situation in the state.

Here's a scenario for you: You are a police officer patrolling Interstate 19 three miles north of Nogales, Arizona (a border city) and a known immigrant smuggling route. The van is driving five miles under the speed limit. You pull forward to try to read the license and run the numbers and as you do, the van does a lane shift and a slowdown to avoid letting you see. You're not having it, so you turn the lights on and try to pull over the van. The van stops, and a dozen or more individuals jump out of the van and scatter. You call for backup and round up everyone that jumped out.

Now, judging from the TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES, what would be your REASONABLE suspicious about the immigration status of the individuals in question? Notice I never once mentioned the ethnicity of anyone involved.

Does this sound like a far-fetched scenario? I wish it were, this scenario repeats itself in real life several times each week.

Yes, but isn't that kind of "reasonable" search already permitted under state law? Running from an office alone is reasonable suspicion. I, like many others out of state, find the language and consequences of this kind of blanket policy a bit unnerving.

 

[Cyke101]

"Only in a god-fearing state like Arizona can you get pulled over, detained and fined if your name is Jesus."

 

[bigdaddy]

Yeah look you have a tan, let's arrest you.

The police already abuse their power, so giving them the right to abuse their power even more is stupid.

 

[Chaos Descending]

On the off chance that I'd be cruising around Flagstaff one day without my wallet and I'm riding shotgun with my girl and she gets pulled over, and here I am wearing my Team Philippines tshirt and I get my i.d. asked for, what do I do? (btw, I'm a citzen)

Obey the instructions of the officer / deputy and produce your ID. Long before this law was passed, the SCOTUS said that you must provide your drivers license to an LEO upon request during an investigation (and a traffic stop counts as an investigation). So the question is really a non sequitor.

Ahem...

Look for the bolded and underlined parts, old chap!

 

[Chaos Descending]

Yes, but isn't that kind of "reasonable" search already permitted under state law? Running from an office alone is reasonable suspicion. I, like many others out of state, find the language and consequences of this kind of blanket policy a bit unnerving.

Under current law, the local law enforcement officers are not allowed to inquire into the immigration status of any of the people involved in that scenario.

 

[Cyke101]

What we need is outright reform and overhaul for a system that's outdated, obsolete, and inferior to those of other wealthy democratic countries. If the legal immigration process were easier or faster (or rather, more concise and comprehensive), there'd be a lot more people wanting to go down the legal route than the illegal route.

I've relatives from overseas who submitted their immigration applications almost 25 years ago. No, they haven't come here illegally. No, they haven't cheated on anything. Yes, they're still overseas. Yes, they have transferable skills (according to our guidelines) and yes, they've thus far gone through the legal route 100% of the way. And yet, 25 years later, the government's been taking their sweet time and only a few weeks ago did my relatives receive a notice saying they are now eligible. With bureaucracy and timidity on this scale, I can't really blame people for trying to find loopholes in the system.

This is essentially the quota system that was finally abolished in the 60s, the system that said only a certain number of Asians (and only a certain kind of Asian) could be allowed to come here. In this case with Arizona, it's now a certain kind of appearance, a certain kind of suspicion, and when someone like Tom Tancredo says it's too harsh, something's wrong.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I've always heard that the US has some of the most liberal immigration laws in the world. Is this not correct?

 

[Teelie]

It's discrimination in the boldest. There is no "if you look hispanic, we can investigate you" openly worded but it's still there. The solution is not so simple as either side thinks.

Put up a fence. Really? That's about as effective against illegal immigrants as teenagers looking for a place to hang out.

We know border patrols are equally worthless. Giving them more freedom or numbers just promotes abuse of power and the likelyhood of nasty incidents.

Just letting anyone in who wants to come in is equally unacceptable. We have enough people who are out of a job, who need help and assistance as it is without adding more people in even worse situations to the pot.

I'm not saying no more immigrants or anything of the sort. The real problem here is that they come here expecting to find a better life. Whether they do or not I can't say but it's probably less dangerous for them given that Mexico is about two steps from becoming the world's largest uncontrolled country with the amount of drug lords, corruption, economic instability, etc going on there. The other Latin American countries aren't faring much better.

Ironically the best way to stem the immigration into the U.S. is to improve the situation in their home countries but I have no idea how to do that. Stepping in and propping up a government is not going to work (never has) and this Free Trade deal has back-fired incredibly.

The entire world needs to step in and deal with these countries where people leave because they fear for their lives and can't live. The U.N. ought to be involved but it's so toothless and spineless it's useless. We need another solution.

 

[gturner]

It's not the cops who are racist, it's the illegal immigrants. The only reason they can possible get racially profiled by cops is because they're too racially homogenous. If the illegals were more willing to be white, black, and Asian then racial profiling wouldn't work, but they aren't willing to do that because they're racist.

Do we really want a bunch of illegal racists crossing our borders and taking our jobs? I think not.

 

[Brent]

It is simple really, and I don't know how anyone could argue this, we need to stop illegal immigration and encourage legal immigration. I have no problem with people coming over to the United States to live, but they need to go through the proper process and make it legal. We should all be against illegal immigration, it only hurts everyone.

 

[Timby]

It is simple really, and I don't know how anyone could argue this, we need to stop illegal immigration and encourage legal immigration. I have no problem with people coming over to the United States to live, but they need to go through the proper process and make it legal. We should all be against illegal immigration, it only hurts everyone.

No shit. Illegal immigration is bad.

Broken laws like this are not the way to address the problem.

 

[LitmusDragon]

Down with Arizona! They think they're so great, with their canyons and sandcastles.

Seriously though the immigration issue needs to be addressed but I wonder if this is the right way to go about it.

 

[gturner]

I think it's ironic that San Francisco, which is only 14% hispanic and 7% black, wants to boycott Arizona - which has a far higher percentage of blacks and hispanics than "culturally diverse" San Francisco.

 

[Mistral]

Down with Arizona! They think they're so great, with their canyons and sandcastles.

Seriously though the immigration issue needs to be addressed but I wonder if this is the right way to go about it.

A lot said thus far. I, too, wonder. For the record-I lived there for 29 years, grew up there. Here's a few first-hand impressions:

Many of the police depts on a city level already operate in a high-handed way. The cities of Scottsdale and Mesa are locally notorious for profiling already-Scottsdale profiles by income and Mesa by race. They have long histories of police officers abusing their powers. I've seen them in action hassling people who were minding their own business. Got a night stick in the back of the legs once for protesting about two cops who decided throwing someone into a wrought-iron fence was a proper way to regulate his behavior.Giving them a law, however vague it is worded, that backs their often prosecutable actions probably isn't a good idea.

JD Hayworth-one of the main proponents of the law. Met him on several occasions. Talked to him back when he was a weather man over drinks in a local watering hole. This guy is seriously twisted towards extremism. We are talking intolerantly hard-core right wing. So much so, I almost choked when he first got elected to public office. Last time I ever used the phrase "it couldn't happen here" was right before the results were announced.

Used to be, when crossing the AZ/Cali border they'd ask "Any fruits or vegetables to declare?" In the last 2 times I've crossed they've asked "Where are you from?" It just felt ominous.

AZ runs on an old-boy political network. Really, if you live there you start to realize Phx is the largest small town in America. Those in charge have often been hostile to illegals and other "foreigners", whether they come from Mexico or New York City. This law is no surprise-it plays into the mentality of the politicos and their cronies in Az.

Realistically, race isn't a problem issue in Az except politically. The economy would grind to a halt without the illegals. What they need is a way to sort out those that want to be citizens from those that are there to "send $ home". Then register the second type so they can be taxed legally on their incomes. Its not like there is a housing shortage in AZ-not with entire developments sitting empty for a lack of buyers. And its not like the illegals are snatching jobs from legitimate citizens. So the issue, like most, is really money. Find a way to tax the illegals' income and the public fervor to get rid of them will die down, IMO.

 

[TheBrew]

Here is the problem with the bill:

It should not fall upon the individual to prove himself innocent; it is the onus of the government to prove the individual guilty.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Here is the problem with the bill:

It should not fall upon the individual to prove himself innocent; it is the onus of the government to prove the individual guilty.

Question: If you are driving a car, and have no license, it is the burden of the cop to prove that you're NOT allowed to drive, or is it your burden to prove that you are?