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Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

Is it?

  • Yes, that's the official word and it still fits

    Votes: 194 44.7%
  • Yes, but it's borderline at this point

    Votes: 44 10.1%
  • No, there's just too many inconsistencies

    Votes: 147 33.9%
  • I don't care about continuity, just the show's quality

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
I think in some ways fans believe they deserve certain things from the things they love. That the creators owe it to them because they are fans. This is entitlement and wrong. They don't owe us anything. We don't deserve Star Trek, we don't deserve the Prime timeline or anything related to Trek. They make a show, it's up to us if we want to view it or not. McDonald's doesn't owe us Big Macs the way we like it and an artist doesn't owe us to wrap their art to suit the audience.
 
I think in some ways fans believe they deserve certain things from the things they love. That the creators owe it to them because they are fans. This is entitlement and wrong. They don't owe us anything. We don't deserve Star Trek, we don't deserve the Prime timeline or anything related to Trek. They make a show, it's up to us if we want to view it or not. McDonald's doesn't owe us Big Macs the way we like it and an artist doesn't owe us to wrap their art to suit the audience.
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They owe us to do what they say.
No, they don't. They make a product, we buy the product. That is the end of the transaction. If you don't like the product, there are more to choose from. Classic TOS is available on DVD, Blu-Ray, download and streaming. They have no obligation to make more TOS just because some fans just want that.

If you want to call it art, does an artist have an obligation to change their art because the audience doesn't like what they created. No, it's their art. We merely view it and take it as it is.
 
Yes they do.
Why?

Can I demand you change your posts because I don't like them? You created them and I am viewing them. Do you not owe it to me and other posters viewing it to appeal to us and no one else? Or should you be allowed to post what you want without censorship and posters can read or ignore them?

I said most viewers. Not fan sites.
When I talk to most fans, they mostly enjoy it. A few have complaints about the design, but understand seeing the old ones wasn't ever going to happen.
 
The production set the parameters. If they sold the product and can't deliver on what they set, then they have failed.
 
Most viewers didn't care that Klingons in TMP looked different. Most don't care that DISCO does from TOS.
There is absolutely no way to validate a statement like that. All you're really saying is that you don't care, which we've already established.

(And even if it were true, who gives a damn? Shows made merely to satisfy the expectations of "most viewers" tend to be lowest-common-denominator crap. Granted, lowest-common-denominator crap can be very commercially successful, but I'd hope we want Star Trek to live up to higher standards. It's more interesting to talk about what discriminating viewers think.)

So continuity isn't your bag; that's fine. Why take it away from people who do care about it?

And on a related note...
They are? I'm sorry, but I'm a viewer I get it. I might be in the miniority, but genuinely, I don't require them to tell me it's "Prime" or what-have-you. I watch the show, and thus far it lines up with the larger events of TOS, even if the details are not explained. ... I meet them half-way. The production team made changes in the visuals that haven't undermined the larger narrative of the world. Sorry, they have not.
You're being very generous to the production team, though, and setting the bar fairly low. As you previously posted,
Honestly, I don't expect the effects in any production to match perfectly from one production to another, regardless of the universe. The real world nature of production is too well known to me I guess...
For my part, I'm coming at this strictly as an audience member. Either the show is doing something that works for me, or it's not. I don't expect perfection either, of course, but I do expect the best approximation of it that the production team can achieve. That precludes giving them a pass for pushing things in the direction of less plausible continuity.

Now, is it my preference? No, not really...
Again, very generous of you. For my part, I'm content talking about my preference as what I would like to see from the show. To the extent it falls short of that, it's less enjoyable. (It falls short of that in lots of ways; this particular thread just happens to focus on the continuity.) If the show is doing something to satisfy other people, I guess that's great for those other people, but it doesn't do diddly for me.

(By way of analogy, there's lots of criticism the last couple of years about how Game of Thrones has taken a noticeable dip in writing quality, including but hardly limited to issues of internal consistency, since it went past the source material of the published GRRM books. I find most of that criticism to be fairly sound and persuasive. In my estimation the show is a shadow of its former self, which is sad, though it's still watchable. Now, the show continues to get great ratings, which means a lot of people are watching and presumably mostly enjoying it. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean the show is actually maintaining the level of quality it hit in earlier seasons. It just means a lot of viewers aren't very discriminating.)

...though I can see it working within the narrative that has been established post-TOS, post ENT, post Kelvin. Building upon those elements that are featured and added to Star Trek over the past 20 years is just as important in the world building as acknowledging TOS.
I can't really agree about that. For one thing, in my book, with the exception of a handful of episodes in ENT's fourth season, literally nothing has been added to Star Trek over the past 20 years that adds anything meaningful to it at all. You could take away all of VOY, almost all of ENT, the last two TNG films, and all three Abramsverse films, and Trek as a fictional property would not be diminished one iota. (In fact, I think on balance it would be improved.)

TOS, on the other hand, is absolutely indispensable. It is the reason that Trek exists as a franchise, and the wellspring of a really disproportionate amount of what is good and interesting and entertaining and even inspiring about it.
 
I think in some ways fans believe they deserve certain things from the things they love. That the creators owe it to them because they are fans. This is entitlement and wrong. They don't owe us anything. We don't deserve Star Trek, we don't deserve the Prime timeline or anything related to Trek. They make a show, it's up to us if we want to view it or not. ...

They owe us to do what they say.

No, they don't. They make a product, we buy the product. That is the end of the transaction. If you don't like the product, there are more to choose from.
...
If you want to call it art, does an artist have an obligation to change their art because the audience doesn't like what they created. No, it's their art. We merely view it and take it as it is.
What a bizarrely self-abnegating point of view. "Here's your bowl of gruel for today. You'll eat it and like it. Now shut up and sit down."

The producers aren't making the show as a hobby for their own personal amusement. If you look at it as a commercial product, then they have every reason to want to satisfy the expectations of their most loyal customers. Conversely, if you look at it as art, then they should be aspiring to live up to the highest standards of artistic integrity they can achieve. Either way, the absolute least they should do is be honest about what they're going to deliver, and not pretend that it can be two things at once. And whatever standard one applies, we as viewers and fans have every right to criticize it however we damn well please.
 
The production chose to place the story in an existing timeline with full knowledge and that it would 'fit'. That is the expectation they sold.
Did any bit of Trek lore ever say that the events of Discovery did not happen? No, we just don't know about it and there are minor changes in art direction that don't impact anything. If they kill Spock in season 2, then you'll have a point.
 
They owe us to do what they say.

I'm an artist and a writer. I write fanfilms. I also have some deep and pervasive creative issues with DSC. All that said, I as an artist don't owe the people who view my films or read my short stories shit. I create what I want and as long as I'm satisfied with my art and the people helping me produce it and release it to a wider audience like what I've presented to them it's up to the wider public to either like what I make or think it sucks.

I am not at the behest of what the public wants unless I actually enter into a formal agreement to provide what others want based on said tastes and preferences. DSC has no duty to give me the Trek I want. I wish it would, but there are lots of times when it won't and they owe me nothing in that regard. All I'm owed is a stable and viewable streaming platform that doesn't crap out on me while I'm trying to watch it. The actual program content itself?

Nope. I either like it or I don't. End of story. They don't work for me. They're a private entertainment company, not public employees.
 
You're being very generous to the production team, though, and setting the bar fairly low. As you previously posted,
Then where, pray tell, should my bar be? It seems like there is a lot of presumption about what audience members will like and speaking for them. With due respect, the assumption of error of expectations appears to be on me, so please clarify where expectations should be.
For my part, I'm coming at this strictly as an audience member. Either the show is doing something that works for me, or it's not. I don't expect perfection either, of course, but I do expect the best approximation of it that the production team can achieve. That precludes giving them a pass for pushing things in the direction of less plausible continuity.
That is rather binary view of art, one that I personally find rather alien.
I can't really agree about that. For one thing, in my book, with the exception of a handful of episodes in ENT's fourth season, literally nothing has been added to Star Trek over the past 20 years that adds anything meaningful to it at all. You could take away all of VOY, almost all of ENT, the last two TNG films, and all three Abramsverse films, and Trek as a fictional property would not be diminished one iota. (In fact, I think on balance it would be improved.)
On this point, I agree. I've stated that before, and will reiterate-anything post TOS really isn't "Star Trek" in the way TOS is.

So, that's why I don't mind Discovery. I'm not just looking at it with TOS in mind, but also an idea that there can be something different, something new, and history that moves from ENT, to Kelvin, to Discovery. I'm Ok with that because I really can't hold it to TOS standards.

If the view of Trek history over the past 20 years is so dim that it should be discarded, then I certainly can see why Discovery is such a disappointment.
 
What a bizarrely self-abnegating point of view. "Here's your bowl of gruel for today. You'll eat it and like it. Now shut up and sit down."

The producers aren't making the show as a hobby for their own personal amusement. If you look at it as a commercial product, then they have every reason to want to satisfy the expectations of their most loyal customers. Conversely, if you look at it as art, then they should be aspiring to live up to the highest standards of artistic integrity they can achieve. Either way, the absolute least they should do is be honest about what they're going to deliver, and not pretend that it can be two things at once. And whatever standard one applies, we as viewers and fans have every right to criticize it however we damn well please.
Here's you bowl of gruel - dammit, it's bloody sawdust! It's looks like gruel and I had to eat it to know for sure, and it said it was a breakfast item but there's splinters in this bowl :lol:
 
Look, I think some aspects of DSC are utter shite. But they don't owe me as a fan and a viewer anything and no amount of whinging - justified or otherwise - is going to make CBS All Access and the producers of the series my employees. Only subscription numbers and revenue will make the producers think they need to make changes to the series or the addition of new writers who want to pursue a more TOS-centric storyline with greater visual continuity.
 
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