Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I know this thread is stick in a temporal causality loop, but here goes...

Then explain to me what O'Brien meant by "The new holo-communicator I installed it works perfectly" in DS9: "For the Uniform" if this is technology they've had all over Starfleet ships for 125 years?

I just bought a new car.
It sure beats the horse and buggy I was using before that.

I also bought myself a new mobile phone. No need for those telegraph messages or beating of drums anymore.

Granted, I'm not saying that the writers actually MEANT for O'Brien to mean that the new holo-communicator was replacing the old holo-comunicator --- but there is no reason why it can't mean that. There is no reason that we fans can't look at that line by O'Brien and make fit the idea that Discovery had holo-communicators.

Re-interpreting lines spoken previously on screen to fit new information is what Star Trek fans have been doing for a few decades now.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And there have actually only been TWO retcons introduced by Discovery:
- Spock having a foster sister
- Advanced Holo-technology existing in the 23rd Century

-A Klingon/Federation war prior to "Errand of Mercy"
-Klingons having cloaking devices
-Starships being a dime a dozen when in TOS the Enterprise was special and there were only 12 like her
-The Enterprise being the largest and most advanced ship built by man.
-The entire look of the Klingons and their technology.
-Klingons being bald because their ridges are sensor palates.
-Instant travel anywhere and anywhen in the multiverse, making Voyager and Deep Space Nine's premise a joke (admittedly, this one will likely get fixed)
-The Klingon Augment virus never happened
-Site-to-site beaming and intraship beaming being common
-Paris is an overbuilt megalopolis


If you have to qualify anything as being the Discovery version of something as opposed to the TOS version, they're essentially different continuities where things looked and happened differently.

"How did the Enterprise look while Pike was in charge?"

"TOS version or Discovery version? Or Kelvin?"

 

[Spider]

No pastel jammies, no canon.

 

[urbandk]

No pastel jammies, no canon.

No custodial closet shuttlecraft, no canon.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

Maybe, but you also shouldn't necessarily teach revisionist history.

History is revised all the time. Histories of the Cuban Missile Crisis from before the 1990s are completely worthless because important documents were either classified or locked behind the Iron Curtain. Histories of Reconstruction from before the 1960s have to be approached carefully because the authors invariably frame everything from a white perspective without giving consideration to African-Americans. Histories from before the 20th Century assume that history is all about great leaders, and fail to consider that how ordinary people lived and interacted with politics is equally important.

Revisionism is only problematic when it's done for wholly political reasons without regards to facts.

Wait. This is a real thing? No joking?

And the bugs from Conspiracy turn out to be cousins of the Trill.

 

[DigificWriter]

-A Klingon/Federation war prior to "Errand of Mercy"

This is not a Retcon; it's new information that was previously not known, just like the existence of the Enterprise NX-01, the existence of the Dominion, and conflicts with the Cardassians.

-Klingons having cloaking devices

Three retcons, then.

-Starships being a dime a dozen when in TOS the Enterprise was special and there were only 12 like her

This is selective interpretation.

-The Enterprise being the largest and most advanced ship built by man.

I'm pretty sure TOS itself retconned this one.

-The entire look of the Klingons and their technology.

These things are not retcons.

-Klingons being bald because their ridges are sensor palates.

Where exactly did you get this idea from?

-Instant travel anywhere and anywhen in the multiverse

Not a retcon.

-The Klingon Augment virus never happened

Unless I missed something, this has never been said.

-Site-to-site beaming and intraship beaming being common
-Paris is an overbuilt megalopolis

Not retcons.

If you have to qualify anything as being the Discovery version of something as opposed to the TOS version, they're essentially different continuities where things looked and happened differently.

"How did the Enterprise look while Pike was in charge?"

"TOS version or Discovery version? Or Kelvin?"

Just because you're doing this doesn't make it something that "has" to be done.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Augment virus happened. Now it's up to the writers to acknowledge it.

 

[urbandk]

While we're on the subject of what's not canon, I'd like to nominate TNG "Force of Nature," TNG "Genesis," VOY "Threshold," TOS "The Way to Eden" and "Spock's Brain," Nemesis, and STV.

 

[cooleddie74]

"Force of Nature" did have one lasting legacy, though. The warp nacelles of Voyager and other Intrepid-class starships were designed in part to acknowledge the "speed limit" imposed in Season 7 of TNG and establish that Starfleet was taking the disruption of the fabric of space seriously. The whole concept was soon forgotten, though.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Where exactly did you get this idea from?

The people who reimagined the Klingons.

Being that the Klingons are an apex predator the design for their anatomy assumes they have highlighted senses, specifically extra sensory receptors running from the top of their heads to their backs. This was the “impetus” with Page and Fuller for the shape of the heads. They started with designing Klingon skulls.

And these lead to the first designs for a “generic Klingon.” Page explained that DSC’s Klingons are bald because of these heightened senses on the top of their heads. The bald look was also a mandate from Fuller.

Just because you're doing this doesn't make it something that "has" to be done.

Try telling that to whoever writes the next Star Trek Encyclopedia.

If somebody asked you to send them a picture of the Prime Enterprise as it looked under captain Pike, you'd need to send two pictures with one captioned "The Cage" and the other "Discovery". Two looks. Two versions of the continuity.

 

[urbandk]

I didn't know that about the nacelle design! Other than that, those disposable "Starfleet has given us permission to go faster than the speed limit just this once" lines are that show's most lasting legacy. Early foray into serialization!

 

[Spider]

Six different series over fifty years with hundreds of different writers and we expect consistency.

Good luck with that.

 

[cooleddie74]

Season 1 of VOY may have made brief mention of the ship's engines being designed in accordance with the recent change in how fast Starfleet vessels were allowed to travel but if they did I've long since forgotten that dialogue. I do clearly remember that when the series premiered there was a design connection between Voyager and the TNG Season 7 speed limit in that episode and that one of the reasons Intrepid-class warp nacelles pivot up and down is to accommodate a different kind of warp bubble.

 

[DigificWriter]

If somebody asked you to send them a picture of the Prime Enterprise as it looked under captain Pike, you'd need to send two pictures with one captioned "The Cage" and the other "Discovery". Two looks. Two versions of the continuity.

So every single time there has ever been a redesign in the history of Star Trek, it's created a new continuity?

That's not how it works, dude.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

DATA: This woodland pattern is quite popular, sir. Perhaps because it duplicates Earth so well. Coming here almost makes me feel human myself.
RIKER: I didn't believe these simulations could be this real.
DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an energy beam, then back to the original pattern again
RIKER: Yes, of course. And these rocks and vegetation have much simpler patterns.
DATA: Correct, sir. The rear wall.
RIKER: I can't see it.
DATA: We're right next to it.


I mean, it's not like I'm making this shit up

If you look at that conversation in toto, it's clear that what's amazing is the use of forcefields and transporter-like tech to give the holograms physical reality. That doesn't mean Riker hasn't seen a hologram before.

It's like if somebody came up with fully immersive Matrix-style VR, you'd be amazed even if you've used an Occulus Rift before.

Not to mention that holodeck style tech was established as existing on the original 1701.

 

[Ceridwen]

-A Klingon/Federation war prior to "Errand of Mercy"

Which had already been established in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

-Klingons having cloaking devices

The idea that they didn't is itself a piece of fan continuity, it's not on screen anywhere.

-Starships being a dime a dozen when in TOS the Enterprise was special and there were only 12 like her

We did just have a giant war that blew most of them up. That would make any ships left pretty damn special.

-The Enterprise being the largest and most advanced ship built by man.

Wait, which is it, it's the largest and most advanced ship, or there are twelve like her?

-The entire look of the Klingons and their technology.

Looks like a logical extrapolation from their Enterprise levels of technology, not sure what you're referring to here.

-Klingons being bald because their ridges are sensor palates.

What does this have to do with anything?

-Instant travel anywhere and anywhen in the multiverse, making Voyager and Deep Space Nine's premise a joke (admittedly, this one will likely get fixed)

Then why are you bringing it up?

-The Klingon Augment virus never happened

"I saw it happen, don't tell me it didn't happen." No seriously, what are you talking about? Does the fact that there are ridged Klingons in The Motion Picture also mean that there was no Augment virus?

-Site-to-site beaming and intraship beaming being common

The original series has some very casual use of site-to-site beaming; the idea that we don't do it doesn't show up until The Next Generation, must be some problem with the technology a hundred years from "now".

-Paris is an overbuilt megalopolis

Oh noooooooo. Everything is broken, there's no possible reason a city's architecture might change over the course of a century.

"How did the Enterprise look while Pike was in charge?"

It looked like a saucer with an engineering section, shaped like a cigar, and twin warp nacelles that stretch out on pylons from the engineering section.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So every single time there has ever been a redesign in the history of Star Trek, it's created a new continuity?

That's not how it works, dude.

When they're concurrent and incompatible, it's a new continuity.

 

[Ceridwen]

The people who reimagined the Klingons.

Being that the Klingons are an apex predator the design for their anatomy assumes they have highlighted senses, specifically extra sensory receptors running from the top of their heads to their backs. This was the “impetus” with Page and Fuller for the shape of the heads. They started with designing Klingon skulls.

And these lead to the first designs for a “generic Klingon.” Page explained that DSC’s Klingons are bald because of these heightened senses on the top of their heads. The bald look was also a mandate from Fuller.

You are going to have to relegate a LOT more Star Trek to separate continuities if you want to account for every production memo.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Not a new continuity - a continuity altered to the new user's liking.

Continuity is FOSS.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Which had already been established in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

The idea that they didn't is itself a piece of fan continuity, it's not on screen anywhere.

Except Kirk's crew look like idiots in "Balance of Terror", being amazed at a claoking device when they were in common use a decade before in that war nobody ever mentions.

We did just have a giant war that blew most of them up. That would make any ships left pretty damn special.

Not the intent of the original.

Wait, which is it, it's the largest and most advanced ship, or there are twelve like her?

There are 12 of the biggest, most advanced vessels.

Looks like a logical extrapolation from their Enterprise levels of technology, not sure what you're referring to here.

Yet they go backto that ENT look and those ENT ships afterwards, magically grow their hair back etc etc...

What does this have to do with anything?

Because it renders the anatomy of the Klingons seen in DSC incompatible with Klingons with hair.

"I saw it happen, don't tell me it didn't happen." No seriously, what are you talking about? Does the fact that there are ridged Klingons in The Motion Picture also mean that there was no Augment virus?

Nope.

The original series has some very casual use of site-to-site beaming; the idea that we don't do it doesn't show up until The Next Generation, must be some problem with the technology a hundred years from "now".

It's referred to as unsafe in TOS, on the Enterprise 10 years after everyone on DSC does it casually.

Oh noooooooo. Everything is broken, there's no possible reason a city's architecture might change over the course

Yep, a perfectly plausible evolution of Paris

of a century.

It looked like a saucer with an engineering section, shaped like a cigar, and twin warp nacelles that stretch out on pylons from the engineering section.

and this

are not the same. Which one is how the Enterprise under Pike looked? Two possible versions. Two continuities.